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4. COMMUNICATIONS.(Cont'd We have a very viable city- -the City of South Bend - -we have all the commodities -- especially in the labor market. All these things tie in together. When you send your people out to sell your community, you have to give them something to sell. Commissioner Cira reported on his recent visit to Cleveland, Ohio, and one would have to see it to believe it= they have a large mammoth parking garage in Cleveland -- right down in the heart of town--with a very nice restaurant, and on the third floor of the garage they had a super market. The super market had 12,000 square feet and has been operating since last August and doing approximately $3,000 business a week. It's unbelievable. The Chair called on Mr. John R. Kagel, Executive Director, Downtown South Bend Council: Mr. Kagel said he believes today proves a point- - "that you gentlemen are'sort of isolated in fighting this battle from the citizens of the community. We all recognize the importance of the downtown area as a tax base to the city. We all recognize the importance of the city as a tax base to the 'county, and as I sit here listening to this comment, I am reminded that probably the Mishawaka people, their downtown urban renewal program is 'faced with some of the same problems. It would appear that as our communities of South Bend and Mishawaka have worked together so well these many years that maybe the day has arrived that perhaps you can share some of your learnings with the Mishawaka people, and the Mishawaka people can share some of their learnings with you gentlemen, but, most especially, I think that we have arrived at a point where you volun- teer people- -lay people -- perhaps should sit down, and I know that the Mayor- -that this is a mandate on the part of the Mayor of the City- - but I think that there has to be an understanding - -a mutual under- standing of the problem, the possible solutions, the importance of these problems and the solving of these problems to the tax base of the community. I think the time has arrived that it would be bene- ficial for not only the cities of Mishawaka and South Bend to sit down, but to sit down with the respective City Council, with the County Council, with the County Commissioners, with the Area Plan Commission, with the Board of Zoning Appeals of these two cities, and to discuss this as to where are we going with these two cities. Do we revert to the cornfield problem--and I am sure that some of these people are aware of that- -but these are all.intermingled. Someway there is going to have to be enough people to sit down around these tables to discuss this problem -- especially as it relates to the tax base of our two communities. You are doing a good job. I have empathy for the problems that you have; you have the bureaucracy on top of you; the Federal people that are breathing down your neck. I just wish the rest of the people in the community were aware of how you are trying to resolve these problems." Mrs. Mutzl asked, "Mr. Nimtz, do I understand correctly- -had we built three more parking garages, the debt that you now owe to the Federal Government would be smaller by that amount ?" President Nimtz said, "By matching funds, yes." Mrs. Mutzl further asked, ` "But the City could be in debt for these garages; so you are in 'debt one way or another. Mr. Brownell said they would be worse off really. Mr. Caesar added, "They wouldn't owe the Government; they would owe the bank." - 7 -