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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMay 1, 2023 Historic Preservation Commission SPECIAL Meeting - MinutesCITY OF SOUTHBEND HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION MINUTES HYBRID MEETING May 1, 2023 Board of Public Works Meeting Room, 13th Floor 6:00pm County -City Building, South Bend, IN MEMBERS PRESENT: Sarah Andrews - President Andrew Jones - Treasurer Joan Downs-Krostenko — Arch. Historian and Secretary Elizabeth Hertel Don Dietz Peter DeKever Michael Skaggs MEMBERS ABSENT David Wyncott - Vice President I. CALL TO ORDER — 6:00 pm IL ROLL CALL III. PUBLIC HEARING a. COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT SARAH ANDREWS PRESIDENT ALSO PRESENT: Adam Toering Ross Van Overberghe Kathryn Hough "10 Most Endangered" of South Bend and unincorporated St. Joseph County (Audio Position: 00:39) Staff Presentation: Adam Toering gave a presentation on the "10 Most Endangered" properties and the results from discussions with Commission members. Properties that were identified by three or more Commission members as being a property of interest. These are the properties that will be included in the "10 Most Endangered" list without needing an additional vote. - State Theater - Birdsell Manion - Perre Navarre Cabin - South Bend Tribune Building - People's Church - Portage Manor - Studebaker Administration Building 212-216 S Michigan St 511 W Colfax Leeper Park East 225 W Colfax Ave 302 W Washington Ave 3016 Portage Ave 635 S Main St Properties that were identified by two Commission members as being a property of interest. The Commission will vote on which of these A CERTIFIED LOCAL GOVERNMENT ADAM TOERING OF THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE HISTORIC PRESERVATION ADMINISTRATOR EXCELLENCE ACCOUNTABILITY INNOVATION INCLUSION EMPOWERMENT 1400S County -City Building 227 W. Jefferson Blvd. South Bend, Indiana 46601 p 574.235.9371 f 574.235.9201 southbendin.gov CITY OF SOUTH BEND I HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION properties to add to their list to round out the "10 Most Endangered" list. - Monarch Building 516-518 S Michigan St - Indiana Lumber/Local No. 9 738 S Michigan St - City Cemetery Gate/Sexton's Cottage Elm St - Marquette School 1905 College Ave - Old Country Bakeshoppe/Union Twnsp School 65014 SR 931 - South Bend State Bank 911 S Michigan St - Grace Methodist Episcopal Church 760 S Michigan St Public Discussion: (Audio Position: 19:31) Jerry Frye, 401 W Madison St, South Bend, IN. Handed out a typed -up letter to the board and then read the letter into the record. Steve Mihajlovic, 511 W Colfax, South Bend, IN Commissioner Discussion: (Audio Position: 34:52) Commissioner Andrews: So to start off with the top seven that we walked through, those are, this is the second time we've all seen this, in the last meeting, as Adam mentioned, are there any, just commentary on the top 7? Adam Toering: I want to reiterate something that Peter said last time. There's only one property that is a county property that is on this list and again reiterate that this is South Bend and Saint Joseph County. You have dual jurisdictions. So I think that is valuable. Commissioner Hertel: I agree with that. Commissioner Dietz: The question that I would have on that property though, as we look and kind of define our list, is is that property actually salvageable? Adam Toering: I believe yes, it's rough, it's bad. Commissioner Dietz: Because you know, I'm up for a challenge, and if I'm questioning it, you know. Commissioner Jones: It's on Zillow Commissioner Hertel: Because I was curious Adam Toering: As you guys know, I have a love affair with masonry buildings, the masonry is good. Commissioner DeKever: I've seen it Commissioner Hertel: Adam I think if, I would like, I would really love to have more of a discussion with like Bill and the community, Union Township, because there was, when I was down there a few months back, there was a lot, there was a lot of people that like to talk. They were like yes, we want to save this building. Yes we want, we want to save it. What's it going to cost? You know, what's it going to take? Did the county guy every reach out to you? Adam Toering: I talked to Randy Figg who is the councilman for that region and so he and I have talked about it before and again, I think it's the Town Clerk, I think, would be the starting point for a conversation there. I have not spoken with her, I believe. Page 12 CITY OF SOUTH BEND j HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION Commissioner Hertel: I would be happy to initiate that conversation if we want to start to talking to them, I don't know how that legally would go with, if we invited them to a meeting or if just a few or just me discussed this with them. Kathryn Hough: I think that as long as it's just you ... Adam Toering: but not speaking, Commissioner Andrews: Not speaking on behalf of the board. Adam Toering: as the Commission but just as a ... you can do that Commissioner Andrews: One question I had when you met with Adam, Peter, were there other county buildings that you felt would supersede Old Country Bakeshoppe? Commissioner DeKever: Considering the poor condition that that building is in, I think that raises its priority level. You know, there are other buildings that we had talked about where we're kind of concerned, but they're not in some like dilapidated state. They appear to be at least intact, perhaps being used. So that one, because of its condition, I would say that would be the most important one. There are others that are kind of on our radar screen. We wish they were, I wish they were being used or had some secure future. I would be comfortable with this as a representative of those properties in unincorporated St. Joseph County that we could potentially see as in danger. Commissioner Andrews: Ok, great. Ross Van OVerberghe: Peter, I can't recall, was Green School on your list? Commissioner DeKever: Yeah, well, I know we talked about we kind of talked about a lot of buildings, but yeah, that's another one. Ross Van Overberghe: The school corporation, I think that is somewhere on their list of either partial demolition or it's another building that they own that they're not doing anything with. Commissioner Andrews: Isn't John Glenn. Ross Van Overberghe: pardon me Commissioner Andrews: Isn't John Glenn going to absorb. Ross Van Overberghe: They can absorb Green Township, Commissioner Andrews: but not the building Ross Van Overberghe: but not the building. Commissioner Andrews: Ok. Adam Toering: The building's been empty for a number of years, and I think the History Museum has been using portions of it for storage. So at least that's my understanding, but nothing going on there to, to my knowledge. Commissioner Andrews: Ok. Adam Toering: So there's valid concerns for that. Commissioner Downs- Kroste n ko: So I have that sort of procedural questions. Ok you started the conversation just by sort of opening up CITY OF SOUTFI BEND' HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION those top seven. And I kind of felt like the question was, does anyone feel strongly that those are not the top 7? Is that kind of? Commissioner Andrews: Yea. And I didn't really hear that there was any objection. Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: So I guess I'm assuming there isn't any objection. Commissioner Andrews: Does anyone have any hard leaning Ross Van Overberghe: The conversation got sidetracked. Commissioner Andrews: Yeah, Ross Van Overberghe: Before you guys had a chance to discuss. Commissioner Hertel: Well, I think that this was what when we all sat down, when he tallied the numbers of what everybody said, these were the, these were the upper numbers of what everyone said. Commissioner Andrews: Yep Commissioner Hertel: So I think Commissioner Downs- Kroste n ko: The top, there's a consensus. Commissioner Hertel: Yea Commissioner Andrews: The weight in the room started with the top 7 and then the bottom 7 is what we have to narrow down to three Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: And so let me just say something. So it sounds like the Old Country Bakeshoppe, um Old School has a lot of pull in the list because it's in the county. I would like to say that the city cemetery gate, which is, and Sexton's College, which is very close to my heart, actually I think we may be able to get movement on that without putting it on the list because it's not on fire and it's really only a question of money and artisanship, we may be able to help them with the artisanship. We just have to get them to budget it into one of their budgets and I think that we might be able to do without it being on the list. Just my two cents. Marquette School really does worry me because of the issue with the, you know, the school corporation has been trying to thwart all efforts to save the building from the get -go and that would be a real loss because of how much money and energy has been put into saving the building already. And so I also feel like the school corporation has been such a terrible partner to historic preservation in general that this is a hill that we do kind of need to die on with Marquette School. So I personally would put it on the list. So I would say for me to pick those three, I do understand the argument for the Bakeshoppe and for me Marquette School is really important. Commissioner Andrews: Thanks Joannie. Commissioner Skaggs: Well, I just wanted to note and this probably speaks to my perception of how we're talking about it, but is there a reason, do we have to call it the Bakeshoppe? Because I'm think if we're doing, if we're trying to raise awareness for advocacy, I think the Union Township School would probably get more traction than the Bakeshoppe. Not that the Bakeshoppe is not a worthy enterprise, but if we're talking about why should everyone care about this, the original school is probably a little bit more. Page 14 CITY OF SOUTH BENDI HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION Commissioner Andrews: I agree. Something I was curious about is if we look at the bottom seven that we're trying to narrow down to three, one criteria that I was curious if people how they felt about it is if we felt that if there was no local protection or national protection, would that raise it, you know, on our list to make it into the top three? I'm not saying it should, I'm just posing that question to the team. Commissioner DeKever: That would be part of what contributes to it being in danger. Commissioner Skaggs: Was it only the Indiana Local 9 that had no protection at all? Ross Van Overberghe: The Grace Methodist doesn't have any. Commissioner Skaggs: Ok. Commissioner Andrews: And those are near each other in the same walking. Adam Toering: Yep, but there's a lot of South Michigan attention. Commissioner Andrews: The bank is also interesting. Commissioner Hertel: Yeah. Adam Toering: Four out of the seven that you're discussing are on South Michigan. Commissioner Andrews: Would it make sense to do, like a block or, cause I think they had done that before with Indiana Landmarks, they had done like Main St for some of the smaller towns to address several, but Adam Toering: You guys can, do, you have the power. So if you wanted to do multiple properties on South Michigan. Commissioner Jones: I just have been trying to ask this about the city cemetery, was the lift truck, a city lift truck Commissioner Andrews: Yes Commissioner Jones: Ok, so it's city on city crime essentially and the city's self -insured. So the city doesn't, ok, now that makes sense. And so was anybody else then it's just a liability claim and then it gets fixed, but when the city hurts itself and is self -insured there's no one else to go after. That makes sense Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: And I just think there's a lot of foot dragging because I think they actually probably need, they probably need the budget it in the budget and that's also need their hands held to find the craftsmen who can rebuild it the way it was. Commissioner Jones: Yeah Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: Because that's probably special ironworkers. So I would think that we might be able to through research and finding them a contractor and other stuff we might be able to make that one work without putting it on the top 10. Commissioner Hertel: What about the Sexton's Cottage? Commissioner Dietz: Yeah, that's my question. What is that used for? Page 15 CITY OF SOUTH BEND I HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION Adam Toering: There's some records that are kept in there, but there's no activity there. Most of the records were digitized and moved off site. So it's the structure Commissioner Jones: What's wrong with it? Adam Toering: Maintenance issues and some foundation issues. I don't know if you've ever been to City Cemetery, we jokingly call Godzilla the Groundhog, there's a lot of ground hogs and there's some issues with foundation. Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: But that's not one that you need some kind of like advanced degree to fix up, like that's just a general contractor with some sensitivity. Commissioner Jones: Make sense. Adam Toering: Yep. Commissioner Jones: Thanks Adam Toering: The gate is the primary. Commissioner Jones: Yep, Commissioner Hertel: I agree with you because I feel like if we were to put this on our top ten, the purpose is to bring to the light to the community, the properties that we feel are endangered, I would like to hope that people would say "why isn't the city taking care of itself? Why isn't the historic ... taking care of?" Commissioner Dietz: To further that is, we can get if we could get a win out of that and Multiple people speaking at the same time: yea, like an easy win. Yea. Yea, exactly. Low hanging fruit. Yea, you know go get some. Commissioner Jones: Well my only concern is like the gate's not going to get more broken, so. Commissioner Hertel: So you say. Commissioner Jones: Whereas a year from now, the Union School, Union Township School Multiple people speaking at the same time: Thank you. Yea. Thank you. Commissioner Jones: Might not exist. Multiple people speaking at the same time: Yea. Right. Commissioner Jones: I know those aren't competing against each other. Theoretically, I think we pretty much all agree, Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: That's a good point though Commissioner Jones: It's not going to get. Thay why I was asking, too, about the Sexton's Cottage. I live a couple blocks from there. I love the cemetery, and I just didn't know if it was going to fall apart. Then I didn't realize it. It sounds like that's not like emergency. So that, Commissioner Dietz: but if we don't pressure them, they will not put it in the budget. Commissioner Jones: Right, Commissioner Dietz: that's part of it. So then you wait another year or another year and then they just keep, Page 16 CITY OF SOUTH BEND HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: It could be good politics for our first Commissioner Dietz: yes. Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: If all of a sudden we get movement on one or two of the properties really quickly Commissioner Jones: That makes sense. Commissioner Dietz: So that's why I kind of look towards that one Commissioner Jones: It's a fixable Commissioner Dietz: it's a fixable problem. Yeah, but it's still might take a year, because they have to put in the budget, or two years to put it in the budget and find the craftsman. Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: If we can see it's actually budgeted to be fixed we can take it off the list. Commissioner Dietz: Correct. Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: Put something else that needs to be on the list. Commissioner Jones: Oh yeah. I just, I had two questions, Adam, about when you presented the these that I you could if you could expound on you said South Bend State Bank is in good shape. So that's my first question. Adam Toering: I have concerns, whenever you have masonry buildings that were abutting each other and then you remove the abutting building like it's whether that masonry is sufficiently protected and ready to endure the elements. Uh, so far, so good. The southern side is seemingly patched up better. This north side, where the building was just removed in the last couple of years. Ross Van Overberghe: There's also, another concern is because there was a fire next to it, so any painting or sandblasting, fire other elements like that will erode the mortar, the brick when it's fired. Since it's when you fire brick, it gets a glaze on the outside, naturally, that actually protects the brick itself inside. When you paint and then try to remove paint or a fire happens where the heat will degrade that. Once that protective coating is gone, right, the brick erodes much quicker. So being that there was a fire before this got removed is one of the reasons that that is a concern. So solid now, but in five years there might be a lot of bricks falling off of that north side of that building. Commissioner Andrews: At one time, wasn't it in use, wasn't it Ross Van Overberghe: No. So it's been apartments for Commissioner Skaggs: Is it apartments now Commissioner Dietz: Is it being used at all now Ross Van Overberghe: Is it still apartments, I don't, we don't know. We do not know if it's occupied. Commissioner Jones: And then the Monarch Building you said they have a new owner. Has the owner expressed. Adam Toering: Yes, actually, there's been some movement on grant applications. They're using the fagade grant program. They've been working with the city on that, So I have some optimism for this one. I Page CITY OF SOUTH BEND ; HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION mean, the interior is pretty rough, but we've done site visits there. We've talked to the property owner. Commissioner Andrews: didn't we have a COA Adam Toering: To get a new roof Commissioner Andrews: two years ago? Yeah, Ok. Adam Toering: And then we buttoned up the front. So I've seen renderings, of the proposed new fagade. When I say new, replacing the plate glass windows with the double windows in the previous configuration, the original configuration, and then redoing the ground floor. There's positive movement. I don't, it's very early. Commissioner Dietz: That intention though is to be a business occupied property? Adam Toering: Believe offices on the ground floor and like apartments upstairs. Commissioner Dietz: Ok Commissioner Andrews: Exciting Adam Toering: Some of you may know what we've been watching, I've been watching since 2017. Commissioner Hertel: Now that Indiana lumber local #9 you said is not designated. Have you had conversations with the local? Adam Toering: We visited with the local when they had the water main breech. Commissioner Hertel: OK, but is there any possibility they may want to make that a historic designation? Adam Toering: We talked to them about the potential for National Register listing to unlock funding and then what that would look like. We put them into contact with the usual suspects for making a National Register nomination. It's just I think they have a bigger question of do they want to remain there? Ross Van Overberghe: Yeah, their numbers at one point in time where 45,000 strong, they're now down to 180 1 believe. Commissioner Hertel: Oh no Ross Van Overberghe: So just for, they're looking for what they can do to get money to fix it up, whether they stay there or not. So they are looking at options for possibly selling it and using the space at the UAW 5 down the road for their meetings, but that's kind of where they are right now. They don't have the funds to do the capital projects. Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: Oh, we don't want them to sell it without any protection or any publicity Commissioner Andrews: Right. Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: And then that beautiful place has, somebody could come in and say well, actually I'm tearing it down because I'm going to do something else. Commissioner Andrews: And like you said, it was stuck in 1950s. So the interior is perfectly preserved. Adam Toering: It's a fun time capsule. Time capsule to 1950s unions. Page 18 CITY OF SOUTH BEND 1 HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION Ross Van Overberghe: Down to the 1950s easy chairs and ashtrays. Retirees used to sit and smoke 's Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: That's how the Masonic lodge, too. It's so fabulous. Commissioner Andrews: Other discussion points that we want to have as a group before we vote. Commissioner Hertel: I mean, I agree with Mr. DeKever about if it's not designated is that part of our concern to try to put some maybe awareness and protection on it? Umm, and I also agree about the Union Township School being a county property. You did mention Green school and is that something that maybe we should be looking towards? Adam Toering: I think not that, I think a larger conversation about school facilities, it's something for us to discuss. Commissioner Hertel: because South Bend school. Oh, no. It was the Studebaker admin building that used to be the South Bend School Board Commissioner Andrews: Admin Commissioner Hertel: OK, But could we blanket it and say, like a school like Marquette. We've got Marquette school. We've got. I mean, schools. That's something maybe as a whole, we would say this these school properties that are in danger. Commissioner Andrews: That's one of the things I was thinking like as the next step. So once we come up with the 10, we know that we have certain tools in our tool belt that we can use to bring more attention to properties and so that was one of the things I was thinking of, the different categories that Todd talked to us about when they put together their top ten, make sure there's diversity in the list so that we don't have 10 school buildings or 10 churches, but we have a good mix of each, but then we can say in addition to what you happen to see on the list these are other properties that we're focused on and we care a lot about. It's definitely appropriate knowing what's happening with the school corporation and the budget that they're getting ready to undergo, like we did with the House on Marion St. just for us as a board to send them a note saying these school buildings of are of concern to us, just so we have it on the record and that would include Marquette, that would include Green Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: and Purley Commissioner Andrews: and Purley. Commissioner Jones: Yes Adam Toering: Yeah, I think that's good, a good tool if you could. I think I told you sometimes I've found some things in the files where there was discussions happening with previous preservation efforts where it's on the Commission minutes from a meeting in the 1990s where, Uh Memorial Hospital, that apartment owner, were discussing the YWCA building, which used to stand north of Memorial Hospital, close to Leeper Park, and that there was essentially, like, we won't fight you Page 19 CITY OF SOUTH BEND HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION on this one if you will not tear down this one, and I'm saying this from the perspective of knowing which buildings are of value with the school corporation because we will lose, there will be buildings that will be being torn down. Commissioner Andrews: Don't want another Riley high school to happen. We do not want that to happen again, it's a beautiful building that is now kind of Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: And also architecturally like a big zero, right? Adam Toering: So I think identify like this could be a we could have a massive meeting just talking about school corporation buildings and I'm not opposed to that if you wanted us to start pulling data or information about the school board's buildings that are slated for raising we will do so, but that is a huge, I think it's a worthy conversation to have. Commissioner Andrews: In light of what's happening. Adam Toering: Correct. Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: So the question then would be do we put the Bakeshoppe and Marquette on their own list along with some others and have a 2 pronged like you know initiative for this year which is the 10 most endangered and our concern about schools or do we keep any one of them on the list. Is that kind of like where we might be going? Adam Toering: If you're asking me, I would tell you to make your 10 most, and then we'll revisit the school corporation at a later, later thing Commissioner Andrews: to do one at a time. Ross Van Overberghe: so just for your information, the schools plan that they got from the consultants for Green, John Glenn Township has until June 30th of 2024 to purchase, if they do not, the plan is to raise the school. Commissioner Hertel: June, June 30th, 2024. Adam Toering: Yep, correct. Ross Van Overberghe: So Commissioner Dietz: So there's some time there Ross Van Overberghe: there's some time Commissioner Hertel: not much though if we want Ross Van Overberghe: Well, if John Glenn decides not to purchase it, then Adam Toering: We'll know, Ross Van Overberghe: but that gives you an idea of their timeline. Marquette is on the let's just tear it down now. Commissioner Hertel: So that sounds like Marquette is right now it needs assistance right now. Commissioner Jones: Destroy any evidence that I went to South Bend Schools. Commissioner Andrews: Well, we understand that Page 1 10 CITY OF SOUTH BEND!, HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION Commissioner Jones: Marquette and then Adams, who's next, I have a bad feeling. Commissioner Dietz: I'd like to revisit the top seven for just a second. Commissioner Andrews: Yeah, please. Commissioner Dietz: The Studebaker administration, right? Now they came before us for a COA for windows, right. Commissioner Andrews: Yes Commissioner Downs- Kroste n ko: that's right. Commissioner Dietz: So, is this, my question is, is this in need of saying endangered or are they working towards Ross Van Overberghe: The actual the actual proposal was for them to shutter it over the window openings to mothball it right however the applicant was the potential buyer who had first right of refusal we've not received any information that the sale has actually happened. Commissioner Dietz: OK, Ross Van Overberghe: He had current owners consent Commissioner Dietz: because his track record is very solid, the potential new purchaser. Adam Toering: long term, yes. Commissioner Dietz: So that makes me, that, I just wanted maybe a little clarification on that if that should be should that be considered if it's kind of Adam Toering: In your Commission members votes. Commissioner Dietz: Yeah, Commissioner Downs-Krostenko: so we don't know if he's actually going to buy it or not. Ross Van Overberghe: The other, I mean, Indiana landmarks still has a covenant on that property as well. So there is another level of protection for that property that I don't know how many of you are aware of that, so that is something that does make it a little bit more difficult for somebody to just buy and tear it down or do anything to so. Commissioner DeKever: I have a question also for when we decided on the topic based on how Landmarks does their top ten list, are they presented just in alphabetical order? Is there some effort to rank and prioritize the concerns? Adam Toering: I mean, currently the way it is arranged in this list was by the number of votes. The first seven was like the frequency rose to the top of the state theater first. Commissioner DeKever: Because people may ask that when this is shared with the public you know, anytime you have a top ten list, there's kind of an implied ranking, but if we don't want there to be that ranking, then we want we want to just clarify that Commissioner Dietz: in no particular order. Commissioner Hertel: Yea. Commissioner Andrews: I think that's what he included about these are the Indiana landmarks, in no particular order Page 111 CITY OF SOUTH BEND : HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION Commissioner Jones: Makes sense to do it that way. Commissioner Hertel: Alphabetically and there's no question. Commissioner Andrews: Yeah, I agree. Commissioner Skaggs: Yeah, alphabetically. Commissioner Andrews: Alright. Is everyone comfortable voting? Alright, let's do it. Commissioner Hertel stepped out for a moment after casting her vote (Audio position 1:01:08 to 1:03:22) After due consideration the following action was taken: (Audio Position: 1:03:23) A vote by ballot was taken to choose the additional three properties that would round out the Top 10 list. The three properties that were voted onto the list were City Cemetery Gate/Sexton's Cottage, Marquette School, and Old Country Bakeshoppe/Union Township School. IV. PRIVILEGE OF THE FLOOR V. REGULAR BUSINESS a. APPROVAL OF MINUTES April 17, 2023 Minutes Upon a motion by Joan Downs-Krostenko, seconded by Don Dietz, and UNANIMOUSLY carried by vote, the minutes from the April 17, 2023 Historic Preservation Commission are approved. VI. OLD BUSINESS VII. NEW BUSINESS a. Standards & Guidelines VIII. ANNOUNCEMENTS AND MISCELLANEOUS MATTERS IX. ADJOURNMENT Upon a motion by Elizabeth Hertel, seconded by Andrew Jones and UNANIMOUSLY carried by vote, the meeting was adjourned at 7:07 p.m. owns-Krostenko Date Arch. Historian/ Secretary