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HomeMy WebLinkAbout02-12-01 Health & Public Safety Qtommttt ' 10rt: a1th an4 Uzi ftty tontutitat The February X„,2001 meeting of the Health and Public Safety Committee was called to order by its Chairperson, Council Member Andrew Ujdak at 3:10 p.m. in the Council Informal Meeting Room. Persons in attendance included Council Members: Kelly, Varner, Ujdak, and Kirsits; Mikki Dobski Shidler, Officer Ron Glon, Lois Clark, Thomas Bodnar, Len Grummell, Bob Kruzmatich, Myer Blast, Becky Goldsmith, Kevin Winters, Nancy Sulok and Terry Bland of the '4U1j n GrtbUU ,and Kathleen Cekanski-Farrand, Council Attorney. Council Member Ujdak noted that this Committee meeting was called to continue discussion of the Administration initiated Bill No. 133-00 addressing firearms. He noted that at the Committee meeting of February 12th the substitute version was further amended at the Committee level. Council Member Ujdak then asked the Council Attorney to highlight the areas of concern. Kathleen Cekanski-Farrand stated that at the last Committee meeting the following areas were highlighted as warranting further input by the Administration and discussion by the Council: 1. Is notice to the public required if the Council would pass such legislation? Would signage assist in the enforcement? 2. Who would enforce this ordinance if passed? In light of the areas shared by the City and the County in the County-City Building and the shared space areas by the City and the South Bend School Corporation, who would enforce the local ordinance? 3. Has there been discussion with officials of St. Joseph County with regard to the logistics of enforcement as well as overall plans for the security rules governing common areas shared by both the County and the City? Dr. Varner added that an additional area of concern was: Is the City able to confiscate firearms as proposed by the City Administration? Thomas Bodnar, Deputy City Attorney, made the presentation on behalf of the City Administration. He stated that seven (7) years ago today, the South Bend Common Council passed an ordinance which created detailed regulations governing firearms. Approximately two(2) months after the passage of that ordinance in 1994, the Indiana State Legislature passed a state law which effectively negated two-thirds of that ordinance. Mr. Bodnar stated that the proposed ordinance pending before the Council is intended to address "all weapons and not just handguns" and would make those regulations on "city-owned or city-managed properties". He stated that if the Council would like the signage language back in, that it could do so. He stated that the two(2) primary purposes of the ordinance are to delete those portions of the ordinance which are unenforceable and to provide protections to those who work and visit city-owned or city-managed property. Council Member Ujdak inquired about enforcement and whether Mr. Bodnar had met with any representatives of St. Joseph County. Council Member Ujdak noted several examples of practical concerns affecting enforcement such as how would the average citizen know if they are on city- Health and Public Safety Committee February 21,2001 Page 2 owned or city-managed property, and common areas such as stairways and hallways in the County-City Building. He inquired whether metal detectors would be necessary in the County- City Building,and if not,how would the proposed ordinance be enforced. Mr. Bodnar stated that he spoke briefly with Commissioner Cindy Bodle this morning. The Council Attorney noted that she has several concerns with regard to passing the ordinance if a clear understanding with the County is not in place. Since one of the primary goals of the ordinance is to "provide protections", she feared that "false expectations" may be created for the public if the Council's questions are not properly addressed. Council Member Kelly stated that he spent a considerable amount of time researching the many issues involved when proposing regulations in this area back in 1994 when the initial ordinance was passed. He noted that a proper balance of the constitutional rights must be struck in order for any firearm regulations to be proper. Council Member Kelly voiced concerns about the proposed ordinance as it currently reads, especially in the enforcement areas. He agreed with Council Member Ujdak and the Council Attorney that there are many practical concerns that must be ironed out before going forward. He concluded that if the ordinance would be completely unenforceable that why do it at all. Council Member Varner inquired who would be called in the natural course of events and what enforcement procedures would be in place if the Council would go forward. Mr. Bodnar stated that anyone could make an inquiry of any individual if they have a permit to carry a handgun. If the person has the proper permit, it would be acceptable. If a person is making threatening actions with a firearm then a ticket should be written. Mr. Bodnar noted that there are approximately 100 persons who could write such tickets including members of the Department of Code Enforcement. Council Member Ujdak voiced concern with regard to the enforcement procedures outlined by Mr. Bodnar, fearing that the Code Enforcement personnel would be put in grave danger if they made such inquiries. Council Member Ujdak also cited the staff in the City Clerk's Office who handled the Ordinance Violations payments. He again noted that putting the burden of enforcement on clerks and clerical staff to inquiry about a firearm places an undue burden and would jeopardize their personal safety and that of their co-workers. Dr. Varner asked Officer Glon what would happen if a person would carry a firearm into the Council Chambers during a meeting and what procedures he would follow. Officer Ron Glon stated that he would ask the individual to step outside of the Council Chambers and ask to see the person's permit to carry the firearm. If the person had a permit, he would ask them to put the firearm in their vehicle and thereafter return to the Council Chambers. If the person did not have a permit, the firearm would be confiscated and the person would be arrested for failure to have a permit. Council Member Kirsits inquired about the definition of"firearms", noting that Mr. Bodnar stated that the ordinance is aimed at"all weapons". Mr. Bodnar stated that the ordinance is proposed to address firearms and not all weapons. Council Member Kirsits then inquired into the "excepted persons" language on page 3 of the proposed Bill. Mr. Bodnar stated that the Council could amend that section if it so desired. Health and Public Safety Committee February 21,2001 Page 3 Dr. Varner inquired about whether there should be posting in light of the numerous examples given today with regard to shared space areas, etc. Council Member Kelly asked who owns what property and who manages what property, noting that he sees the problem being compounded if these issues are not addressed. Council Member Ujdak stated that he appreciates the intent of the City Administration's ordinance but again believes that putting a desk clerk or secretary in the role of an enforcer is wrong and sets a dangerous city policy. He inquired about the situation where a County Officer may be closer than a City officer, who would be called? Council Member Ujdak stated that he is not convinced that the ordinance should go forward since it puts the City workforce in even greater jeopardy. He also noted that perhaps the City and the County should look at banning all weapons in the County- City Building so that there would be consistent and practical policies in place. Council Member Ujdak asked Mr. Bodnar about the"confiscation issue". Mr. Bodnar stated that the Council could substitute the word"impound"for the word "confiscate" in the two areas in § 13-96. Council Member Ujdak then asked if there was anyone in the public to speak in favor of the proposed ordinance. Mrs. Louis Clark noted that she is very concerned about the culture which we live within since there are individuals who try to solve their problems with a weapon. She voice concern that there are no prohibitions to prohibit carrying firearms into hospitals, day care centers citing several examples where harm was inflicted and also cited the stun gun incident locally. Mrs. Clark stated that perhaps the City needs to start from scratch. She noted that she is not against hunters or collecting antique guns. She hoped that there could be an open dialogue so that this could end with a win/win for all parties concerned. Council Member Ujdak then asked for those wishing to speak against the proposed ordinance. Mr. Grummell stated that everything that is being discussed is already addressed in state law. Mr. Bob Kruzmatich stated that he is a paramedic on the South Bend Fire Department and quoted from Article 1, § 32 of the Indiana Constitution addressing the right to bear arms. He noted that he is not a hunter since he does not enjoy killing animals. He voiced concern over Officer Glon's procedure which he outlined with regard to a person who has a proper permit to carry a firearm. He also stated that he believes that the City Administration has introduced this proposed ordinance in an attempt to prohibit gun shows at the Century Center and asked why? He concluded that he believes the City would be going down the wrong path if this ordinance is passed. Becky Goldsmith inquired as to what is the City attempting to accomplish if this ordinance is passed? She stated that Gary once banned all guns and it quickly became the murder capital of the United States. She urged enforcement of the more than 20,000 gun laws which are currently on the books rather than further infringing the constitutional rights in this area. Myer Blast stated that he is a Mishawaka resident who works in South Bend as a registered nurse. He stated that the ordinance is unnecessary, noting that no law will stop someone who is intent on doing harm. He further voiced concern over the City attempting to confiscate firearms. Kevin Winters stated that he is a Mishawaka resident and believes that the proposed ordinance will Health and Public Safety Committee February 21,2001 Page 4 not result in the City being safer as proposed by the City's Deputy Attorney. He urged the Council to listen to the people. Mr. Grummell cited several recent incidents in Massachusetts, Illinois and San Francisco where individuals were killed because no one had a firearm to defend themselves. He urged the Council not to take away the right to defend himself and others. He noted that the problems with guns in South Bend involve drug dealers and gang members. Mr. Grummell stated that there are over one (1) million people in the State of Indiana who have valid permits to carry a firearm which is the largest number for any state in the Union. He noted that when former Gary Mayor Hatcher's anti- gun law was thrown out that crime went down in Gary. He concluded that the proposed ordinance is bogus on its face. Mr. Bodnar stated that he would be open to amendments to the proposed ordinance. Dr. Varner noted that Mrs. Clark was sincere with regard to her concerns. He stated that perhaps there should have been a"Bill of Responsibility"as well as a Bill of Rights. Council Member Ujdak thanked everyone for their input and for coming to the meeting. He noted that the Committee would continue discussion on it next Monday, February 26th. He again reiterated his concern with regard to enforcement and the lack of a clear agreement between the City and the County. Council Member Ujdak stated that he understands the intent of the bill, however absent an agreement with the County he does not see it as being practical or enforceable. There being no further business to come before the Committee, Council Member Ujdak adjourned the Committee meeting at 4:15 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Council Member Andrew Ujdak, Chairperson Health and Public Safety Committee KCF:kmf