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AGENDA OFTHR DECEMBER 18'2006 o
COMMISSION:MEETING
Regular Meeting 4th Floor Council Chambers
County -City Building
MONDAY, December 18, 2006 7:30PM
I. CALL TO ORDER,- ROLL CALL
H. PUBLIC HEARING
A. CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS
1. 1515 E. Wayne Street COA# 2006-1113
`
r
2. 733 Bronson COA# 20061122
B. LANDPVIARK
C. NATIONAL REGISTER NOMINATION
III. REGULAR BUSINESS
A. APPROVAL OF MINUTES
5
November 20, 2006
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B. TREASURERS REPORT
Location Report
l
C. COMMITTEE REPORTS
_ .
1. President's Report:
W =:f
2. Committee Reports
4
{
Nominating Committee
,
:..
D. STAFF REPORTS:
1. C of A Approvals; Correspondence;
A. Director's Report
.
B. Assistant Director's Report
0-.
2. Legal
K
IV. OLD BUSINESS
V. NEW BUSINESS
1. Election of 2007 Officers
`
VI. HEARING OF VISITORS AND ADJOURNMENT
3
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STAFF REPORT
CONCERNING APPLICATION FOR A
CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS
Date: December 5, 2006
Application Number: 2006-1113
Property Location: 1515 East Wayne Street
Property Owner: Peggy and Bill Soderberg
Landmark or District Designation: East Wayne Street Local Historic District
Rating: Contributing
STATEMENT OF SIGNIFICANCE/HISTORIC CONTEXT: Whitcomb and Keller built this H.R.
Stapp -designed house in 1926 as a rental property. It remained a rental until its purchase by Geraldine
and Dr.*George Green in 1937. The house remained in the Green family until 1991 when its current
owners; Peggy and Bill Soderberg, purchased the house.
APPLICATION ITEMS: Replace the 8 South facing windows and 1 east second floor bedroom window with
Crestline's Crestfit vinyl clad wood pocket replacement windows. The windows will be wood double hung
with 6 over 1 replicating the current windows. The current windows are warped, sagging and will not hold
paint either on the interior or the exterior.
East Wayne Street Standards: II Existing Structures, C Windows and Doors. Window and
doorframes are of wood or steel (some casements) or in the case of brick structures, stone sills and brick
lintels.Where metal or vinyl siding has been applied, window trim has been covered. Storm windows
are of wood or aluminum.
Reouired: Original windows and doors shall be retained including sashes, lintels, sills, shutters,
decorative glass, pediments, hoods, and hardware. When deteriorated beyond repair, they shall be
replaced with units and trim resembling the original.
Recommended: Wood frame storm windows and doors painted to match the original should be used but
should not damage existing frames. If new sashes or doors are installed, the existing or original materials,
design and hardware should be used. When metal storm doors are used, they should be painted, anodized
or coated to match the existing. When awnings are used they should be of canvas material.
Prohibited: Original doors, windows and hardware shall not be discarded when they can be restored and
reused in place. New window and door openings which would alter the scale and proportion of the
building shall not be introduced. Inappropriate new window and door features such as aluminum
insulating glass combinations that require removal of the original windows and doors shall not be
installed.
Not Recommended: Awnings, hoods, and fake shutters made of metal, vinyl, or fiberglass should not be
used if they would detract from the existing character or appearance of the building.
RECOMMENDATION: The 1932 Portage Township Assessor Card notes additions and modifications
throughout the 1930s and 1940s including a second storey room over the back porch addition that has since
been removed. The 1987 survey card of 1515 E. Wayne Street notes the building integrity of this house as
altered -major. The entire exterior is aluminum sided with aluminum storm windows and there are very few
visible original architectural features on this house. Staff recommends approval of the replacement windows
for the deteriorated windows with the stipulation that the original windows be stored.
Application.
– FOR – -
Certificate of Appropriateness
Historic Preservation Commission of. South Bend & St. Joseph County
125 S. Lafayette Blvd., South Bend, Indiana 46601
Mailing Address: County -City Building, South Bend, Indiana 46601
Phone: 574235-798 • Fax 574-235-9578 * Email: SBSjCHPCGcost joseph.in.us
Website: http://wwwsgosephcau WhulWu com/*hp/index.html
P
OFFICE USE O > > T COMPLETE ANY ENTRIES CONTAINED BOX >OFFICE USE ONLY
Date Received , --_ Application Number
Past Reviews: YES (tate o/ tau Review) O
Staff Approval authorized by- Title:
Historic Commission Review Date: /a - /00 - ZO e0G
[I Local Landmark (Local Historic District (Name)
[] National Landmark [] National Register District (Name)
Certificate of Appropriateness:
Denied ❑ Tabled C] Sent To Committee n Approved and Issued
DALE
Address of Property for proposed work '�✓� `� y� �j�``-��
Str um�ber�'`d Street Wad
Name of Property Owner(s): (Please Print) k/' �� �� v� G'� r
Address of Property Owner(s): 4 ✓��,� /,�. �' � �
Contractor(s) Name: `S ex e,
Contract Company Name:
Contractor Address:
City: r Phone:
Current Use of Building:
(Single Family —Putti
i-y-Faa�mily — Com -141— Goternment — industrial — Vacant — etc.)
Type of Building Construction: Z"va..-
({Hood Frame — Brick — Stone — Steel — Concrete — Other)
Proposed Work: l jn-kind n Landscape [] New [T`fieplacement (not in-kind) M Demolitioog,�
(more dart one box:uay be checked) f�
Descriptio of Proposed Work: /j ��rs'- ��` � �Er �i <<% 1 �,, rat/G�o` '"�
rJit.-►� 7`t'/ �`y .�' : G'i" l`1,•rt G�
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vitt 1 e t t' Ltr•1'ltlGla ldis� . �l vx chi ✓ !P ��'"ta r f �, GJ `f T'•
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Owner/Contractor. Fax: ` e-mail
(Thi, office will correspo)ul with only one designee)
and/or
-- APPLICATION REQLUREMENTS ARE LISTED ON REVERSE SIDE •—
CRESTFIT VINYL CLAD WOOD
POCKET WINDOW
Beautifully designed to give you the best of both worlds: the
elegance of good and the maintenance -free ease of vinyl.
• Windows combine wood interiors with
maintenance -free all -vinyl exteriors
in White or Almond.
• Both sash tilt in for easy cleaning.
• Quality weatherstripping and cam locks
assure security and energy-efticiency.
• Window hardware available in t`t'hite
and Copper -color. _
• Color -coordinated frill screen is standard.
• Optional removable wood grilles, 5/8" Flat
and 3/4" Profiled grilles in the airspace.
C.RESTFiT PRIMED AND CLAD
SASH REPLACEMENT KITS
Install sash replacement kits yourself in less than an hour. It's the
fast, easy, affordable way to replace old, drafty double hung sash.
• Install energy-efficient double hung sash without replacing
the entire window.
• Kit includes easy-ro-clean tilting wood sash and '
easy -to -follow instructions.
• Available with primed wood exteriors or aluminum -clad
in Whire, Cream, Taupe, Hunter Green, Brown,
Dark Bronze and Charcoal Black.
• Interiors are select pine ready to be clear sealed, stained
or painted.
• Optional removable wood grilles, 5/8" Flat and 3/4" Profiled
grilles in the airspace.
VINYL EXTERIOR COLORS WOOD INTERIOR ALUMINUM CLAD EXTERIOR COLORS
8^.x.."Y:ss3s'�.�'x'.+.�;�e..�.;r..�w�,:quaa.m..,.�,r',...,t..n.mrrr«�a...u:.»,ar��:.+.:....��e.u.:i2'��.=.«:_..:,:.:,_�,.-,.o,.,.;,__:,:<-:-.>.:_:._,:_.,__:.._.:....r�•,,.a.:�r,�e.�:,......,::: �,.:...s.-: ,,. ,.;,•.: __�..:::.:.__:.:.�
`.� White Cream Taupe Hunter Brown Dark Chorcoa
White, Almond ,/ Pine Green Bronze Black
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Look fit "How to NIC,ISLII'C, ()rdCl' and IIIS1,111" I)IOCImIcs bor
Cie,rFit 'Cl,laccinclit vindov-, md doublchungNash kit, in the
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and Weth0d, Ot manufacture .,IthcUl pnor notice NeOse .enf, unit
dimensions and/or tough openings -th our Ciestfine distrioulor
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BUILDING
Class---- Type -----J--3 -/ -- --
�^- Stories __- Year Built �-
( Construction
Fire Proof____7- Slow Burning_,. --__Sprinklers-____
Occupancy -- t}'r I--]]YYL-1----------
Cubic Feet -----.3 @-r�4� (--------------------
MATERIALS
Eat, Walls"1' Br__-� ___ Sides
Foundation .C.((W�..._______ Roof__ __
Partitions___. -1
INTERIOR
�1
Floor--T--X- Tub___
Bath Rooms _ .3 _.` ]._ nn Showers----
Stall__1.,� _
Real I __ Floor --------
Fire
____[ire Place
Elec.
Vacuum System _ _ __- - Incinerator- ___-___
Refrigeration_
BasementQ Si7.e31__61_1 0ceupaney____`__..-_. _.
_Steam ------- H.W.------
I leating Plants s•, • : .
6iErl'�a-__----Stove-------
i
Elevators .__-" -. Pass..".- .. '---..__ Freight __mac._.. _._ _
Rooms Finished I•st._ % 3nytr, _ . _�
r.., 3rd_ - -
_Car Garage (Metal __ Wood le Stuccd__ Brick __ )
:disc. Buildings ----------
---------------------
__ __ r_______---__
Rema ks AQi1 -� - - - Cubed by- yVi• -Plans 1—__Field__.:•. Date_-/J_r_� 2 Checked by-------------
_......� ..-.... s.-..... .... ...r _.. ..., ... ....-. ....+-w. .. ... .....�. ....,.. ....,...-., �... ..»...... v. w.. a.>,... .o v.n,> ,4 �..a-r M�,v. n�;- ..--... «a..�. ai-..�..,�Hn.r:i..i•::A: irn�.....:4��r+a.�w..+v+ww:. �. �,..� �� '.
4ViHI R, BUILDER OR ARCHITECT-(—)— AI—tC rA" -f tJ-I.-D _� I --
CONDITION OF BUILDING - GOODVFAIR__POO;t_—
KIND OF BUILDING___ ___.___ .______ INTERIOR FINISH - - - - GOOD -VFAIR__POOR,,- t
FURNISHINGS - - - - - - rG-(OOD__F/AIIR__POOR_,_
SQ. FT.
ACCP.R.CAT'kT P RATR PPT? f'IT PT 19 ARi(1TINT I S( 1
STAFF REPORT.
CONCERNING APPLICATION FOR A
CERTIFICATE OF APPROPRIATENESS
Date: December 6, 2006
Application Number: 2006-1122
Property Location: 733 Bronson
Property Owner: Robert Culp
Landmark or District Designation:
Rating:
Contributing
Edgewater Place Local Historic District
STATEMENT OF SIGNIFICANCE/HISTORIC CONTEXT: This vernacular gabled ell is thought to
have been constructed in 1892 by William H Harper, a grocery store owner and real estate developer. The
house was eventually sold to William Garfield in 1901, a piano tuner, who lived there for 40 years. It was
also owned by several others including Mary Unger nee Dreibelbis who operated a Beauty Parlor in the
house during the 1940s. The current owner purchased it after Barbara and Larry Sehl abandoned the
house in 2006.
APPLICATION ITEMS: The owner has engaged DePalma Home Remodeling to vinyl side the house
and to paint the windows, soffits and fascia.
Edgewater Place Standards II Existing Structures, A. Building Materials Original exterior wall materials
in the District range from brick, clapboard, shingles, and masonry block to aluminum siding. In the
majority of the cases the aluminum siding has been applied over the original clapboard. There are some
masonry commercial buildings on Lincolnway.
Required: Existing exterior building materials shall be retained. Deterioration of wood materials shall be
prevented through repair, cleaning and painting. The existing architectural detail around windows,
porches, doors and eaves should be retained or replaced by replicas of the same design and materials
when deteriorated beyond repair...
Required: Whenever possible, the original building materials should be restored. Aluminum or vinyl
siding may be used when it is the only feasible alternative to maintaining the original surface material.
When used over wood surfaces, this siding should be the same size and style as the original wood.
However it must be noted that such material can contribute to the deterioration of the structure from
moisture and insects....
Prohibited: Wood siding shall not be resurfaced with new material such as artificial stone, brick veneer,
asbestos or asphalt shingles which is inappropriate or was unavailable when the building was
constructed....
See attached for complete the Standard concerning all building materials but do not apply to this house.
RECOMMENDATION: The contractor proposes to apply vinyl siding over the existing asphalt shingles
which were applied over the original clapboards. It is noted on the 1985 survey card that the integrity of this
home was altered -major and was only in fair condition. Its condition did not improve over this 21 year period.
While the application of vinyl siding is not ideal, it will more closely resemble to original clapboards and no
original features are going to be removed. Staff recommends approval with the stipulation that the contractor
agrees to restore the deteriorated drip moldings above the windows that were removed.
L-,Xlj kation
- FOR -
Certificate of Appropriateness
Historic Preservation Commission of South Bend & St. Joseph County
125 S. Lafayette Blvd., South Bend, Indiana 46601
Mailing Address: County -City Building, South Bend, Indiana 46601
Phone: 574-235-9798 • Fax: 574-235-9578 • Email: SBSJCHPC@co.st josephjn us
Website: http://www.sqosephcounqindiana.com/s chp/index.html
OFFICE USE ON » » COMPLETE ANY ENTRIES CONW INErO X » > FFICE USE ONLY
Date Received• d=-b� •. c lNli/ Application Number '�
n YES (Date of cast Review) ❑ NO
Staff Approval authorized by: Title:
Historic Commission Review Date: /a2-/P'Zaa G
❑ Local Landmark Veal Historic District (Name)�Ct EtvAr.
E] National Landmark n National Register District (Name)
Certificate of Appropriateness:
E] Denied ❑ Tabled n Sent To Committee ❑ Approved and Issued
Address of Property for proposed work: 2 3 3 !l r� 0r i S n /I
��11 Street Number and Street Name
Name of Property Owner(s): (please Print) j20� P.�/' Tbit 1 Q
Address of Property Owner(s): �, �� �S i7'20 l ✓t �
Contractor(s)Name: ��� �(zp�_`o ?•Q
Contract Company Name:
Contractor Address: 0/0�6:7 - c)CVV- >
City:_ . ;Qs t 4A _ ,nA;� / Phone: S` Z4� - �' 0
S 7
Current Use of Building: �p /I'— -a.-) 410.
(Single Family Multi -Family - Commercial - Government - Industrial - Vacant - etc.)
Type of Building Construction:V-1!�� 1 a( t VN. 4
( ood Frame - Brick - Sdne - Steel - Concrete - Other)
Proposed Work: ❑ In-kind R Landscape [New Replacement (not in-kind) [:] Demolition.
(more than one box may be checked)
Description of Proposed Work: ��Ul tYl / /✓1 t lv a_1Yl dt✓ �G�rtt
P'a1r o.T
Owner/Contractor: Fax: e-mail
(This office will comspvnd with only one designee)
and/or
— APPLICATION REQUIREMENTS ARE LISTED ON REVERSE SIDE —
Edgewater Place Local Historic District
II. EXISTING STRUCTURES
A. BUILDING MATERIALS
Guidebook
Original exterior wall materials in the District range from brick, clapboard, shingles, and masonry
block to aluminum siding. In the majority of the cases the aluminum siding has been applied over
the original clapboard. There are some masonry commercial buildings on Lincolnway.
Required
Existing exterior building materials shall be retained. Deterioration of wood materials shall be'pre-
vented through repair., cleaning, and painting. The existing architectural detail around windows,
porches, doors, and eaves should be retained or replaced by replicas of the same design and mate-
rials when deteriorated beyond repair.
Masonry structures shall be maintained, tuckpointed and properly cleaned when necessary.
Masonry shall be cleaned only when necessary to halt deterioration or to remove stains, and shall be
done with the gentlest method possible, such as low pressure water and soft natural bristle brushes.
Stucco surfaces shall be maintained by cleaning and repainted when necessary. When repairing
stucco a stucco mixture shall be used.
Recommended
Whenever possible, the original building materials should be restored.
Aluminum or vinyl siding may be used when it is the only feasible alternative to maintaining the
original surface material. When used over wood surfaces, this siding should be the same size and
style as the original wood. However it must be noted that such material can contribute to the dete-
rioration of the structure from moisture and insects.
Mortar joints should be repointed only when there is evidence of moisture problems or when suf-
ficient mortar is missing to allow water to stand in the mortar joint. Existing mortar shall be dupli-
cated in composition, color, texture, joint size, method of application, and joint profile.
a. Typical wood frame wall where moist inside air freely
i migrates to the outside. Moisture may condense in the
wall cavity and be absorbed into the adjacent materials
and evaporate as the wall is heated by the sun.
INTERIOR EXTERIOR
warm. moist air cold. dr% air
r
IA.—ood siding
i 1
moisture
•Y.
• conde—tion
placer ^
�J l
b. Typical wall condition with insulation and a vapor barrier
facing in (toward the heated side of the wall). The vapor
barrier prevents moisture migration, thus keeping the
insulation dry.
Page 31
INTERIOR`EXTERIOR
warm. nwia pit ' cold. dry air
�1
moisture ' :a
/ : � va por barrier
Guidebook Edgewater Place Local Historic District
Prohibited Incorrect
Wood siding shall not be resurfaced with new material, Mortar not clasped out to a
such as artificial stone, brick veneer, asbestos or asphalt sulficiesu anilorm depth.
shingles, which is inappropriate or was unavailable Edges, of brick damaged by toed
when the building was constructed. Sandblasting or the 7, at Irtrider. Cxeatts wider Joint.
use of harsh detergents shall not be used on masonry or
stucco. This method of cleaning erodes the surface mate -
nal and accelerates deterioration.
Not Recommended correct
Mortar cleaned out to a un4-
Waterproof or water repellent coatings or surface consolida- form depth—about 1" deep.
tion treatments should not be used unless required to solve
a specific problem that has been studied and identified. Undamaged edges of brick.
Coatings are frequently unnecessary, expensive, and
can accelerate de -
joints
filledterioration of the
Figure 4. Comparison of incorrect and correct
too fun
masonry- Mortar preparation of mortar joints for repointing.
joints which do Drawing. Robert C. Mack and David W. Look.
edge sasceptable Wide, feather
to spalrmt not need repoint-
ing should not be. Repointing should not be done with mor-
tar of high Portland cement content, which can often create
a a bond that is stronger than the building materials. This
Joints
slightly can cause deterioration as a result of differing coefficient of
recessed
a
57E expansion and the differing porosity of the material and the
mortar, which can result in serious damage to adjacent brick.
Figure 6. Comparison of visual effect of tali mortar
Paint should not be removed from masonry surfaces indis-
joints vs. slightly recessed' ints. Filling joints too Crirninately-
full hides the actual joint Wicknessand changes the
character of the original brickwork.
Hot Cold
Normal (Bricks expand) (Bricks contract)
A. Flexible Mortar
ItIme)
11 wl�
O"M
Mortar compress" Mortar flexes
B. Inflexible Mortar
(cement)
spalling Cracks open up
Figure 3.
D
iaC
'd7turge5. Bricks
e at Old Buildings "' Document D20: National Szl�edish Institute for Building Researc}T, Storklrotm,1975.
Page 32
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November 21,
2006
MINUTES OF A MEETING OF THE
HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION
OF SOUTH BEND & SAINT JOSEPH COUNTY
November 20, 2006
4" Floor Council Chambers
County — City Building, South Bend, Indiana
Members Present: Lynn Patrick [President], Mary Jane Chase [Secretary], Catherine Hostetler, Martha
Choitz, Joann Sporleder, [Architectural Historian], Tim Klusczinski, [Treasurer] Shawn Peterson [Legal
Counsel], Linda Riley, Todd Zeiger
Staff Present: Catherine Hostetler [Director], Amy Herdman [Asst. Director], Wayne Doolittle [Preservation
Specialist]
Others Present: Don Sporleder, Susan Youens, Joan Downs-Krostenko, Jennifer Gregar, Yigel Mitthan, Susan
Sakimoto, David Faulkner, George Enderle
Absent: Jerry Uj dak
I. CALL TO ORDER, ROLL CALL: President Lynn Patrick called the meeting to order at 7:35pm.
11. PUBLIC HEARING
A. CERTIFICATES OF APPROPRIATENESS
1. 710 Park Avenue C of A# 2006-1108-A
Local Landmark, designated by Ordinance #6461-1978
STATEMENT OF SIGNIFICANCE/HISTORIC CONTEXT: This Eclectic Italianate was built for Mary
Chapin Anderson and Andrew Anderson between 1875 and 1877. Four generations of the Anderson-
DuShane family lived in this house until 1962.
APPLICATION ITEMS: Replacement of four windows in dining room with Marvin insulated glass (that
can be upgraded to Low E II/Argon gas) windows. The windows will be wooden double hung inserts,
aluminum clad for the sashes and wood for the sills. The daylight openings for the proposed sashes are: width
30 518" versus 31 1/4" in the original and height 37 3/8" versus 39" in the original.
Standards and Guidelines for Chapin Park: II Existing Structures, C Windows and Doors: Please see
attached pages 74 and .75 of the Chapin Park Standards and Guidelines for the verbatim Standards concerning
windows.
GROUP B LANDMARK STANDARDS B. Treatment: Treatment shall be defined as any change of
surface materials that will not alter the style or original form. Such improvements include reproofing,
glazing, or landscaping lawns and may involve a change that can potentially enhance or detract from the
character of the landmark. A treatment change of any surface whether on the landmark or in its environment
may require a Certificate of Appropriateness if it significantly alters the appearance of the landmark.
Although these kinds of changes may not require a Building Permit, a Certificate of Appropriateness may be
necessary. The commission should review the proposed treatment for character and style consistency with the
original surfaces.
RECOMMENDATION: Professor Enderle proposes to remove the four sashes in the bay window area of
his dining room and replace the sashes with aluminum clad wooden sashes and wooden sills with Marvin
Clad Ultimate Insert Double Hung, Head Jamb, Checkrail with Beveled Frame version installed in the
existing frames and on top of the existing sills. (See illustration on page 19.9 of the Marvin insert which
shows both the sashes and the sill as aluminum clad). The Marvin Clad Ultimate Insert window framing
will be individually custom fit into each of the four irregular window openings in the bay window area.
Staff does not recommend approval because the Chapin Park Standards and Guidelines require that original
windows and doors shall be retained including sashes lintels, sills, shutters, decorative glass, pediments,
hoods and hardware. When deteriorated beyond repair, they shall be replace with units and trim resembling
the original. And the Chapin Park guidelines prohibit discarding original windows when they can be restored
and reused in place as well as the use of aluminum insulating glass combinations that require removal of
original windows and doors.
Patrick: The Chair recognizes the homeowner if he wishes to approach the podium and make
any statements. Please limit your comments to five minutes.
Enderle: Yes, good evening ladies and gentlemen. First of all, I would like to begin with
thanking you for your support that you have provided me over the last four months. Particularly
the dedication and perseverance in the search for an appropriate solution for my window
problems. I would like to thank particularly those that came to my house last time to have a first
hand look at my windows and to discuss what we can find as a solution. And also my thanks go
to Martha Choitz who recommended Marvin Windows. I considered it seriously, I contacted
Marvin Windows, and I had a meeting with Bruce Darr, representing Marvin Windows, Joann
Sporleder, and my contractor at my house. I see the following options- it is true that the existing
windows can be restored, but they are single pane glass windows. But they are not thermally
efficient, they are cold. It is not possible to install exterior storm windows because my house
never had that, and it is technically not feasible to do that. It's not possible to have interior storm
windows because that would change the character of the room and would look a little bit like a
prison. What I have done last year, and what I have done this winter is to stretch plastic over the
windows, which works but is definitely not the definitive answer, and it costs about $20 per
window. I also have consulted with an architect to find out what we can do, and I also have
consulted with Dr. Robert Rodes who is a neighbor and a professor of Law at the University of
Notre Dame. Now my solution which I am proposing here are Marvin Windows, double hung, all
wood, two glasses, the color matches the existing paint. I also asked Bruce Darr if that window
can be repainted and he confirmed that. So, from outside, there is no change at all. I'm also
willing to salvage the windows because I know that they are of quality, and I have a safe place in
my basement where I can store them and so I would like to submit my proposal and ask you for
consideration and understanding.
Patrick: Thank you. You may sit down or remain standing if you wish, but the President will
now recognize Commissioners with questions for the Staff or property owner, not to exceed five
minutes. Any Commissioners?
Peterson: Madame President I just wanted to acknowledge that because this is a new Certificate
of Appropriateness, any evidence submitted at the prior hearings will not be considered unless
one of the Commissioners or the applicant wants to submit the minutes from those prior meetings
as evidence. I know that at the last meeting there was a site visit and it seems that evidence was
submitted into the record for that, so if the Commissioners want to do that again they can do that,
or ask that the minutes once approved be submitted into the record.
Patrick: Thank you esteemed counselor. I was not referencing any prior, um on my revised
parliamentary procedure that I've been trying to follow that and our other one it's a 15 minute
maximum so we've always traditionally started out at S with the understanding that we can go
longer if necessary. Do any Commissioners have questions?
Sporleder: I would like to pickup on what Counsel has suggested. I would like to make the
motion that the minutes of all of the previous meetings be admitted as evidence for this particular
hearing. I make that as a motion.
Peterson: I think that you can make that a motion once they're approved to do that. Otherwise
the applicant or any Commissioner can submit it to evidence with their comments too. It does
need to be a formal action to do it.
Sporleder: Ok. Thank you.
Patrick: Do we have a second on that motion?
Riley: Second.
Patrick: All in favor? (Ayes are heard) Let's do a roll call vote.
Sporleder: Joann, aye.
Choitz: I'm not voting.
Riley: Linda, aye.
Patrick: I'm not voting either.
Klusczinski: Tim Klusczinski, nay.
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Chase: Mary Jane Chase, abstaining. I think that the changes that were made convolute what
we're trying to do.
Zeiger: I vote no, Todd.
Peterson: Again, you don't need to take action to submit this into the evidence. You can take the
prior minutes and add it in, but I think it has to be (unintelligible). What I was anticipating was
that if there was evidence already admitted from site visits and things like that, you could either
restate that evidence of factual note into it now, or you could just incorporate by reference as
documented in the minutes that have been submitted to you. Just, uh...
Patrick: Can we just take the counselor's comments and incorporate it as per his reference?
Peterson: Yes.
Patrick: Very good Id like to return to any Commissioner comments. Do we have any
Commissioner comments or questions for the applicant?
Sporleder: For the applicant or just comments?
Patrick: This is the portion where the President recognizes Commissioners with questions for
the Staff or the property owner.
Klusczinski: I have a question for the petitioner. Uh, Professor, you admitted that restoration is
feasible for the windows that we're discussing tonight. But 1 guess I'm not clear on what
specialist helped you make the determination that storm windows are not an option, or could not
be applied to the windows that you have.
Enderle: I think that we had that site visit, and we also have the drawings, and they show clearly
that storm windows can not be placed on top of the frame, it's too small.
Klusczinski: I think the drawing that you're referring to which was submitted for the prior
meeting in October only suggests that the illustration and the form that you presented drawn in is
not necessarily the best option for exterior storm. But, interior storms are still a possibility, and
a modified exterior storm would be a possibility too as far as I'm concerned.
Enderle: Modified? That solution is practically not possible because there is almost no space
between that storm window in the sash. Inside, of course many things are possible. Last year '
and this year I have stretched the plastic over the windows and that is possible. Maybe next year
I have to do the same thing. But to place interior storm windows which goes inside and is not
convenient, Ido not want that. And it has never been so. I don't know why you want to intrude
my privacy there.
Klusczinski: Just for point of clarification, the only points that I'm making are relevant to the
structure that we're discussing which happens to be your house, and also a local landmark.
Enderle: The structure, as I said, is the same. Also the same paint. I also asked because you
asked me about four weeks ago, you told me that those clad windows can not be repainted, and
that's not true. I talked to Bruce Darr and he said that could be done even today, but that would
not make sense. I said maybe in five or ten years, ifl had no clad aluminum, I would have to
paint every two or three years. And I have 54 windows.
Patrick: I'll now initiate a second five minute period. Please continue. Do we have any other
questions by a Commissioner?
Sporleder: If I may pickup on the discussion. Were you finished Tim?
Klusczinski: I was, yes go ahead.
Sporleder: I didn't mean to intrude if you weren't finished. If I could pick up on the discussion
between the exterior storm window and the interior storm window. The exterior storm, on these
four windows, there is no evidence that there ever ever were or was storm windows on the
exterior, as one might have expected. There is no physical evidence; furthermore there is no
place to put them, period. There really is no place to put an exterior window in that location. So
one is left with the option of considering what Professor Enderle is suggesting which maintains
the overall appearance of the existing windows in terms of scale, size, color, dimension of sash,
etc. It will to all purposes replicate what is in fact, there. It is true that the existing window
could in fact be taken out and restored. However, once they are restored, they are still single
pane glass. So, one is still faced with the possibility ofsome kind of storm window now only
available on the inside. So they can continue to stretch plastic as he's continued to do which is
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deteriorating the woodwork on the inside, because it must be removed every year, and it's taking
off the finish. There is no real appropriate place on the inside to install an interior storm.
Patrick: Joann?
Sporleder: I'm notfinished.
Patrick: Ok, I was just going to ask if you were finished.
Sporleder: No, I'm taking a breath. I'm trying to take a breath here. And I appreciate what Tim
and Catherine and other members of the Commission have tried very hard to keep this
extraordinarily fine structure in as pristine a condition as possible. But the pristine condition
means single pane glass, and that is very difficult to live with. Furthermore, I think that no
overall harm could come to this structure, nor to the neighbors, not to the integrity of the
neighborhood by allowing the use of insulating glass in the way it has been proposed to do using
the Marvin windows. Furthermore, I find it extremely interesting in looking at the overall
definition of what is or isn't appropriate and what exists in the neighborhood, there are already,
by the records here, 50% of the houses in that neighborhood already have aluminum storm
windows of one kind or another. A fair number of those are also insulated glass, aluminum clad
illuminated, not illuminated, insulating glass. And the standards which refer to these 50% wood
windows, 50% aluminum windows, make no allowance for those structures which have no storm
windows of any kind whatsoever. So, I don't see that allowing aluminum clad, wood thermal pane
windows which absolutely replicate what is already there in appearance is so drastically awful
for the neighborhood, or for the house itself. I guess that's what I want to say and thank you very
much and thanks to everyone for the enormous amount of dedication that they have put to this
effort.
Patrick: It's now 10 minutes. I misspoke when I initiated this portion Joann, and that is my fault.
I meant to recognize Commissioners with questions for the staff or for the property owner. At
this point does anyone have a question for the staff, because I have one question?
Zeiger: I have a question when you're done.
Patrick: Very good.
Zeiger: Is it to my understanding that there is going to be a second window sill installed with this
installation?
Sporleder: May I speak to that?
Zeiger: No, I'm asking the petitioner or staff. My understanding from your presentation is that
you're installing a second window sill on top of the existing window sill. In other words are you
replacing the sash or the entire jamb unit with a new sill on top?
Enderle: Its an insert which means it's a frame.
Zeiger: Ok, you answered my question. And I've also understood that there's no historic
evidence of storms, is there any evidence that there's been aluminum cladding ever put on this
building historically?
Enderle: No.
Zeiger: I think that's all of my questions.
Patrick: I have one quick question for Wayne. In your opinion Wayne, is there another solution
other than the one, not to go into great detail, but there is another solution other than the one that
has been presented to us in this Certificate of Appropriateness. In your professional opinion, as
someone who has attended workshops on historic structures, windows etc, there is a different
solution, but it has not been presented?
Doolittle: Well, you can add, or you can replace those windows ... I believe that the sashes can be
replaced, just the sashes. To fill the same space and with a change of weights on it, if you're
using a spring loaded weight then you can accommodate a dual pane glass. It would mean
taking out the existing sashes, top and bottom, and replacing them with wood sashes that would
also have the dual pane glass on it. You can accommodate the difference in weight by using a
different type of pulley system. It would accommodate that weight.
Patrick: Thank you.
Enderle: May I say something to that solution? We discussed that proposal also, and the
problem with that solution is that my windows are not square. And if you have just trim (?) liners
4
on the right and the left side, we have to adjust the whole frame of the window, so that makes this
solution very dijficult.
Patrick: Professor, you...
Zeiger: May I ask a follow up question, because that's what I was asking about as well. So what
I'm hearing is that you're not only proposing to replace the windows, but you're also discussing
narrowing down the entire opening by a significant amount.
Enderle: It's not significant, it's about % an inch.
Zeiger: Plus the newjamb.
Enderle: No, no all included.
Zeiger: How are you installing a new jamb in an area that you're saying is out of plumb?
Enderle: I can give you the measures, but it's very thin.
Zeiger: But the answer that I'm hearing is that you are narrowing down the existing opening.
Enderle: I gave the measurements in the report, and I can read them again.
Zeiger: That's not necessary, you answered my question.
Patrick: If there are no more questions...
Hostetler: I have a question.
Patrick: Oh great, another Commissioner question.
Hostetler: I spoke with Bruce Darr at Werntz Supply, the local Marvin window dealer regarding
Professor Enderle's Certificate of Appropriateness application for replacement sashes. He said
that he gave Professor Enderle approximately eight different options
Patrick: Eight different options?
Hostetler: ... eight different options or different types of window solutions for this particular
problem and Professor Enderle again chose aluminum clad double hung the Ultimate Insert
which is $484.88. The cost of a plain wooden window of the same product line but just plain
wood is $484.88 if it is primed on the exterior it costs $498.56. Marvin does not make interior
storms. Professor Enderle would not need interior storms with the Marvin double paned
replacement sashes. My question is for all of the times that we've been discussing this, and I
know that you had Joann there when you met with Nr. Darr is why did you insist on continuing to_.
pursue using aluminum clad double hung wood windows when a good paint job on a wood
window would last you twenty years?
Enderle: My answer is quick because 1 asked Mr. Darr how, or when do I have to repaint those
wood windows and he said every two or three years. In two or three years, and that is the
reason. Aluminum clad takes maybe ten or twenty years, but if for instance if we want to change
the color than we can do that. I think that aluminum clad is the appropriate solution because I
don't have to repaint the house every three years, or a number of windows, and from outside
there is no change at all. The appearance is exactly the same.
Patrick: Thank you. If there are no more questions. I see a comment from staff.
Doolittle: Yes, I want to make another point. The window is not out of square. The hole that the
window sits in is out of square. And in talking to the gentleman from Marvin windows, he didn't
quite understand that. He said, well you could put an aluminum window in there, and you just fill
it in, which didn't make any sense to me. Again, its the hole that the window sits in that's out of
square, it's not the window. Its ok, and with a wood window, you could accommodate that and
make it fit. 1 just wanted to get that clear, that it is not the window itself, it is not the sashes..
Enderle: No, not the sashes, the frame.
Doolittle: So you have to treat whatever goes in there the same way. If it is a steel window, an
aluminum window, whatever kind it is its going to be square and be sitting in an out of square
hole.
Patrick: Thank you. The timer is going to go off in just about a minute, and we've spent over 15
minutes on this. What I'd like to do now is open up the public hearing portion to any member of
the public wishing to speak in favor of the CoA. I'll recognize each for a maximum of 5 minutes
if there is anyone that would like to speak in favor of this CoA. In favor of the CoA as currently
submitted, for the aluminum clad windows. I'm not seeing any hands raised nor anyone
approaching the podium, so I would like to then summon any member of the public wishing to
5
speak in opposition of the CoA and recognize each for a maximum of 5 minutes each. Anyone
wishing to speak... it doesn't mean that you have to take the full 5 minutes, but you may. Alright.
Krostenko: Joan Downs-Krostenko, 849 Forest Avenue. I'm the chair of the Chapin Park
Historic District Historic Preservation Commission Liaison Committee. I have my committee
here with me today, and I have their signatures on their letter. Dear members of the St. Joseph
County Historic Preservation Committee, we, the members of the Chapin Park Historic District
Preservation Liaison Committee respectfully request that you honor and uphold the regulations
in the Chapin Park Historic District Guidelines and reject any Certificate of Appropriateness
which seeks to install replacement windows at the Anderson House at 710 Park Avenue,
especially those which are metal clad. The Guidelines and the preservationist community are
clear on the inappropriate, ineffective and destructive quality of such replacement windows.
Argon gas is notorious for leaking out of such windows within a year or two of their installation.
At that point water condenses inside and the insulative quality of the windows is destroyed.
Furthermore, such windows are notoriously unsightly, particularly when filled with
condensation, and unlikely to fit the sagging or no long true apertures of historic homes, further
destroying and insulating quality that their marketers proclaim they have. We are not convinced
that restoration and rehabilitation of the existing windows at 710 Park Avenue has been
investigated. It is our understanding that bids for this procedure have not been submitted. We
fear the precedent which will be set if the landmark property at 710 Park Avenue is allowed to
have modern metal clad windows installed. How will you be able to demand restoration and
preservation or original windows, or almost any other original feature, at other properties if such
features on the Anderson House are not deemed important enough to save? (Hard copy of letter,
complete with signatures submitted into the record and is included with minutes) And I would
also like to add that the comment about 50% of the houses in Chapin Park already having
aluminum clad windows is completely without bearing on this argument. There are all kinds of
abominations that have occurred to our beautiful buildings in Chapin Park before we became a
historic district. Metal clad windows are one of them. And I think that we became a district to
cease seeing this kind of destruction done to our beautiful buildings, so I don't think that has any
constitutional bearing on this question. The other thing that I would like to say is that those of us
who have had our houses painted by those that understand how to paint historic homes will tell
you that you do not need to repaint your home every two to three years, or necessarily every five
years if you get a good paint job on there the first time. Thank you.
Patrick: I'm resetting the timer.
Youens: My name is Susan Youens, I live at 850 Forest Avenue and I simply want to second
everything that Joanie Downs-Krostenko said and add my own very unhappy experience with a
single double hung metal modern window that I couldn't wait to yank out once it had failed and
caused all kinds of structural damage around the frame in the space of one year. The house on
Park Avenue is so beautiful, so historically important, such an architectural monument in the
neighborhood that I for one would hate to see anything compromise the integrity of such a
structure. So I hope that the Commission will not approve this C of A. Thank you.
Patrick. Thank you. I'm resetting the timer.
Sakimoto: I'm Susan Sakimoto of 851 Park Avenue, the other end of the street. I have just
finished restoring over four dozen of the windows in my house, and throwing out the metal clad
storm windows. My house is substantially warmer this year. I put thermometers on the windows
last year, being a former rocket scientist I couldn't resist. The restored windows have done
substantially better than the new 1950-1960's double pane windows which leak like a sieve. They
actually do better than the triple pane argon windows I had in my previous house because the
argon leaked out after a year. I would like to suggest that there is one solution that I don't think
has been suggested yet and that is to take the existing sashes, and they are wide old hard wood,
and you can actually put two panes of glass and a spacer in those with a bit of care. Essentially
replacing nothing but the glass, and I'm not sure that's been suggested yet. Its probably the
cheapest option and maybe the most efficient.
Patrick: Thank you.
Sporleder: Are we going to be allowed to speak to any of these people?
2
Patrick: Well, after they're done we have a ... I'll allow for any additional evidence to be
submitted as part of the record after that. This is the oppositional views being expressed. Go
ahead, sir.
Faulkner: My name is David Faulkner and I live at 835 Park Avenue just down the street. I too
live in a historically significant house. It's the old South Bend Toy Company house. I too am in
the process of restoring it as well. It takes long time to modernize, or to fix these houses so that
are up to date. I have 88 windows in my house that I have to restore. I too could have gone the
route of replacing my windows and putting in metal storm windows, metal clad windows. I
looked at that, I entertained the idea at first just to get an idea of what it would cost to do such a
tremendous undertaking of 88 windows. I found there it is much less expensive to have the .
windows that I have rebuilt and repaired and restored rather than replaced. We used to have a
gentleman that used to work with [unintelligible] and he was able to stop by the house and
actually give testimony and his knowledge that the windows are actually better thermally
insulated. .If you stop and think about it, these windows are already 100 years old, and they're
still around. If you put in these new windows nowadays, you see people replacing them every ten
or twentyyears. So really, you've got a much better window in the old ones if they're just rebuilt.
It will also keep the integrity of the property. Moving into a neighborhood like ours, you need to
keep the integrity of these houses, and its very important to most everyone in the community that
a house of that significance stays in tact because its one of the oldest and most historic houses in
the neighborhood. So I too would just like to voice my opinion that I'd like to see another option
entertained for the old windows to be restored. Perhaps you could get names from Todd or
anybody that would be able to do something like that. Thank you.
Patrick: Thank you. The President will now allow any additional evidence to be submitted as
part of the record.
Hostetler: I think that what would like to submit as part of the record would be Bob Yapp's
presentation "Old Windows are Not a Pane, They're a Goldmine' , which he details with
techniques and supplies how to put in and restore windows and do paint jobs that will last I5-20
years.
Patrick: So you will include a copy of that with the minutes when they come out?
Hostetler: Yes.
Sporleder: I'd like to second what Catherine says, and I'd also like to make a comment about it.
I was very impressed with what Bob Yapp's proposal of how to restore old windows. Step #1, if
you would care to open your copy of that, and read it to me, I would appreciate it.
Patrick: I don't think that we really need to go into that at this point.
Sporleder: Yes we do. Step #1 will say quite clearly, 'be sure that your storm windows are
[unintelligible] and restored before you begin on the sash'. This particular structure has no
storm windows.
Patrick: Ok, while she's looking, I have another Commissioner that would like to make a
comment.
Riley: I guess to the last speaker, I'm sorry I missed your name, the one problem that the
Professor has is that he will not have, as Joann said, a storm window. He can have the window
repaired and it will be in good order, but there will be no energy saving there. Did you find any
energy saving or were you able to make your house more comfortable without a storm window?
Faulkner: [unintelligible]
Patrick: Go ahead, approach the podium.
Faulkner: We're still in the process of having our storm windows rebuilt as well as our windows.
Patrick: We can hardly hear you and this is for the record.
Faulkner: David Faulkner, 835 Park Avenue. We are rebuilding our storm windows and our
main windows as well. We're only 8 into the whole 88, we're doing it as we can afford to do it.
So, its taking a little bit of time, but we've noticed that ones that have been rebuilt are better, even
without the storm windows in them because if you have them reglazed and rebuilt, have the whole
frame rebuilt if its rotted out then everything fits nicely, if you've got somebody that knows what
they're doing, then they'll fit nice and proper and tight. We've noticed a significant difference in
the windows that have been done.
rl
Patrick: Thank you. At this point, Shawn had a comment, I see.
Peterson: I just wanted to note that Catherine has informed me that Catherine has given the
petitioner a copy of Bob Yapp s report and that he is fully aware, and has received... so that it can
be submitted to evidence as he is fully aware of it.
Patrick: Good point, thank you.
Sporleder: I've got one more comment, and I'd like to make it.
Patrick: You'll need to be brief...
Sporleder: I'd like to respond to one persons suggestion that the... that insulating glass can be
put in the existing sash. It was first thing that Ilooked at when I went to his house initially. The
sash is not wide enough to accommodate insulating glass.
Patrick: Thank you. I'm trying to move this on, because I know that I'm tired, and I know that
we've spent significant time on this, which is worth spending the time to come to the best
understanding. At this point I'd like to close the public hearing, and recognize the applicant for a
rebuttal if you so choose to make one professor of a 3 minute maximum. A rebuttal of 3 minutes.
Enderle: I just want to tell you that four windows, everybody here in the room can come and tell
me when you want to come and see those windows. If you tell me that I have to put storm
windows there it's not feasible, its not feasible technically speaking. Eighty-eight windows with
storm windows is a different situation. Don't make a judgment about a situation that you don't
know seriously enough. That's why, I mean, I feel that storm windows is the belief, that's the
credo, its true, but in my situation its different. And you need to know my situation before you
can make a judgment.
Patrick: Thank you Professor. Having heard the rebuttal, the President now recognizes
Commissioners for additional discussion and I will entertain a motion. Does any Commissioner
wish to have additional discussion? Mary Jane?
Chase: I think that we're getting hung up on two words here- we're getting all hung up on the
words storm window and aluminum or aluminum clad. If you can have the windows rebuilt as
Wayne suggested with a double pane window with new weights, you probably will have a better
fit. Storm windows are impossible, so we can't get hung up on that, its not a do-able thing for
you. Getting a window rebuilt, double paned, properly fit with new weights it's a heavier
window, you may find that you're going to have the protection in the fitting...I have had
aluminum windows, they sweat and they did ruin the inside wood on a previous home. But we're
getting hung up on two words, rather than looking at solutions. So we need think about solutions
rather that hang up on words.
Patrick: Are they any other comments by any other Commissioners?
Klusczinski: I personally have a hard time believing someone when they tell me that something
can't be done, and it seems up to now there have been no attempts to have a reputable storm
window manufacturer come to the site and assess the situation other than the homeowner. I,
Professor Enderle, was one of the specialists that made a trip to your house, and graciously
accepted your invitation. I could see where we could apply interior storms, and I could also see
where dimensions probably would allow exterior storms. At less of an invasion than the proposal
that you're submitting today that has an interior jamb system on it. So, other than... that's just
what I wanted to say for the record.
Sporleder: May I rebut that?
Patrick: Let's go down this way, I have one comment that I wanted to make. As President, and
as someone that also visited your house, and has tremendous respect for you as a very learned
and traveled man, and as owner of the finest historic homes in the district, I have expressed at
one point that we get our Preservation Specialist Wayne Doolittle, Tim Klusczinski who's very
knowledgeable about this, Paul Hayden, another Preservation Specialist with Historic
Landmarks and a window person, have them do one window in that bay that faces the back and
see if we could satisfy you by doing one window. We talked about it and nothing ever happened, I
don't know if anyone communicated that back to you, but even after all is said and done, this
might bean option. Were it properly written, you wouldn't even have to come before the
Commission, because it would be in-kind replacement, or it would be staff approved or we could
get it through, but I want to hold out this missive of hope because I have a feeling that you might
not totally have the response that you wish from this meeting, but that does not mean that there
will not be a solution some time in the future. And now, Joann you wish to make a comment?
Sporleder: Yes, I really do not understand why Tim is so hung up on putting exterior storms on
this, it has been plainly evident that it doesn't fit.
Patrick: I would prefer that you not characterize one of our Commissioners as "hung up ".
Sporleder: Sorry.
Patrick: Do you have anything else that you wish to say on the matter?
Sporleder: I think not.
Patrick: Thank you. I'll entertain a motion whether to approve or deny the C of A. I'm sorry?
Peterson: I was also thinking that regarding my brief about districts, and what my thought was
whether they prohibited the aluminum and the insulating glass. I guess overall I just want to
remind the Commission that first of all your goal is to figure out whether or not this proposal is
appropriate, considering the structure and its historical significance. Is it appropriate?. And the
guidelines are there to assist you, and you promulgated those to provide guidance to the
community as well on what is and what is not appropriate. Upon looking at it, to be brief, the
actual phrase where it says, in the prohibited section, 'inappropriate new window and door
features such as metal, vinyl or fiberglass awnings, hoods or aluminum insulating glass
combinations that require the removal of the original window or door shall not be installed.'
First, it's qualified by the fact that this particular provision is talking about a feature adding to a
window, and what its saying here is that if you have to remove and otherwise usable, effective
window to install this, or if you're installing this with a current window and its visible that's what
makes it inappropriate, and its prohibited. I don't think that necessarily precludes the fact that if
a window is deteriorated beyond repair, or otherwise ineffective or unusable, you could install an
appropriate looking insulated glass either in wood or in aluminum if its appropriate. I don't
think that it's a complete prohibition, but says what is a prototypically inappropriate when used
with a current... window, basically removing a original window for the purposes of adding in an
insulated window which is a norm that occurs frequently among areas that are not protected by
Historic Preservation.
Patrick: Thank you, Counsel. And that is your contribution offending of fact in this matter
then?
Peterson: I guess that its up to the Commission if they wish to entertain the fact, I think again the
pertinent issues are again. 1...
Patrick: Shawn? I'm just referencing 'if advisable, the Commission makes findings offact with
guidancefrom legal counsel'.
Peterson: Right, and that's what I'm saying... when you look at the standards here, again you
look at 1. Is it appropriate?, 2.what's the public detriment by allowing inappropriate
improvements, and 3., what's the hardship to the applicant by denying the application. So, you
have to find if its inappropriate if you wish to deny it, and then in doing so present particular
findings that reference either the standards or the application as far as what makes it
inappropriate. And then also findings as to whether or not if you allow it what detriment would it
be to the public, and finally what hardship would be experienced in denial. So those are the
findings that you can do, and instead of actually voting on findings what's meant by the
suggestion here is that if someone votes to deny it in a roll call vote, they should say their
rationale as they vote. By reference. let's say Todd is the first to vote, he should say that 'I vote
to deny because x,y and z' In doing so the findings are in those three aspects. Appropriateness,
public detriment, and potential hardship to the applicant.
Patrick: Thank you. And now, I would like to entertain a motion whether to approve or deny this
Certificate of Appropriateness.
Sporleder: I would like to make a motion if I may?
Patrick: Certainly.
Sporleder: I move that we approve of...where's the application number now?
Hostetler: 2006-1108-A.
E
Sporleder:... That we approve application number 2006-1108-A at 710 Park Avenue with the
added addendum that the existing windows be removed and carefully stored forfuture reuse if
somebody so desires to do so.
Peterson: I'd like to comment that if a condition is placed upon the approval, then the applicant
must consent to that prior to the motion being approved. So you'd have to ask the applicant if
they're willing to do that prior to the vote.
Sporleder: Would the applicant be agreeable to storing, carefully removing and storing the
existing windows?
Enderle: Yes.
Sporleder: Thank you.
Patrick: We have a motion on the table, do we have a second?
Riley: Second.
Patrick: We will now vote on the motion on the table. All in favor?
Sporleder: I vote aye.
Zeiger: Do a roll call.
Patrick: We'll do a roll call vote please.
Sporleder: Aye, this is Joann.
Choitz: I'm negative on it, and my reasons are very clear. The house is beyond the ordinary, and
it's a very special place, and many of the things that we've heard here this evening about other
kinds of windows and things being put on these houses were done when there was no local
landmark or local history, or local district here. Now its an entirely different thing. We are the
keepers of the fabric of those houses, and its to remain as simple and pure, and of course they
were made by people that didn't have the use of tools that we have now, and that is my reason,
the house deserves a better chance to go on into its second hundred years without any more
damage to it than is absolutely necessary.
Patrick: Thank you.
Riley: I vote aye, Linda Riley.
Patrick: I Lynn Patrick, President of the Commission, vote nay. I think that its inappropriate for
an outstanding local landmark, I think that it goes against the standards. Having viewed these
windows personally, I think that there are other solutions that there are other solutions than
what's been presented. I believe that this would be a detriment to the house and to the
neighborhood. And I find that the hardship to the client to be minimal if any. So sayeth I.
Klusczinski: I vote to deny Certificate of Appropriateness, Tim Klusczinski, 2006-1108-A with
amendments. The Anderson House is a premier and significant Local Landmark in the Chapin
Park Historic District. Presently, the 50 plus windows of the original 1870 vintage compliment,
remain intact, and contribute to the charm and historic value of the entire structure. According
to "The Repair of Historic Wooden Windows " Preservation Brief no.9 - issued by the US
Secretary of the Interior and National Park Service -Technical Preservation Services, and relating
to historic properties and windows, "After all of the factors have been evaluated (these are,
"admitting light to the interior spaces, providing fresh air and ventilation to the interior,
providing a visual link to the outside world, and enhancing the appearance of a building'),
"windows should be considered significant to a building if they: I) are original, 2) reflect the
original design intent for the building, 3) reflect period or regional styles or building practices,
4) reflect changes to the building resultingfrom major periods or events, or 5) are examples of
exceptional craftsmanship or design. " So then, I conclude that the Anderson windows are worthy
of this consideration. As a result, extreme care should be taken for changes and modifications
that could potentially impact the structure or its parts and, as a result, affect its historic or
market appeal. The Anderson House together with its original components is becoming more
valuable with age — but only while important components (like windows) continue to compliment
its stately presence. Environmental conditions relating to the application can be address by
restoration in lieu of replacement. Resetting and re-glazing the panes would significantly reduce
air infiltration to create a more comfortable living space. In addition, storm windows would
increase the thermal insulation value and could potentially exceed the life and performance of the
proposed double, Argon-filled panes.
10
t
I would suggest the use of interior storm windows, although it is certainly conceivable that custom
varieties could be manufactured to f t within the 7!8" exterior trim.
Again from Preservation Brief no.9, "Consider energy ejjiciency as one of the factors far
replacements, but do not let it dominate the issue. Energy conservation is no excuse for the wholesale
destruction of historic windows which can be made thermally efficient by historically and
aesthetically acceptable means. In fact, a historic wooden window with a high quality storm window
added should thermally outperform a new double -glazed metal window which does not have thermal
breaks (insulation between the inner and outer frames intended to break the path of heat f low). This
occurs because the wood has far better insulating value than the metal, and in addition many historic
windows have high ratios of wood to glass, thus reducing the area of highest heat transfer. "
Evidence obtained from an earlier, on-site investigation revealed that the subject windows are NOT
"beyond" repair, a prerequisite for replacement in the Chapin Park Historic District as outlined
within the Guidelines and Standards booklet. When permitted, the Chapin Park Guidelines and
Standards demand in-kind replacements with respect to material, style and scale. The proposed
replacements differ in several ways. Here are two examples: Original windows are all wood with
painted surfaces. In contrast the replacements exhibit an aluminum -clad, wood core. The proposed
Marvin inserts are designed for installation atop the original sill and below the original head rail.
This will alter the appearance of the original view by creating a double sill. This is not a desirable
alteration. "Technical Preservation Services recommends the retention and repair of original
windows whenever possible, " They "believe that the repair and weatherization of existing wooden
windows is more practical than most people realize, and that many windows are unfortunately
replaced because of a lack of awareness of techniques for evaluation, repair, and weatherization.
Wooden windows which are repaired and properly maintained will have greatly extended service
lives while contributing to the historic character of the building. Thus, an important element of a
building's significance will have been preserved for the future. "
It is unfortunate, but true that C of A #2006-1108-A succeeds in testing the spirit and the letter of the
newly installed Chapin Park LHD Guidelines and Standards. My rejection of that proposal is
intended to honor that document, knowing full well that other more complete solutions are better
suited for this grand and magnificent local landmark.
Patrick: Couldn't have said it better myself.
Chase: Mary Jane Chase, and I vote nay. I don't think that I've heard all the research has been for
various aluminum clad, and the research has not been into proper craftsmen to redo the windows.
The research has all been one-sided so far.
Patrick: Remember to address the standards, and the detriment and the hardship.
Chase: In keeping with the district, you are starting a new district and what happened years ago
happened before it was historic. Now you have to keep the integrity of the district up and maintain
the homes and when you have something as fantastic and beautiful as this one, it would be an
abortion to ruin that.
Zeiger: Todd Zeiger, I also vote no. I'd like to echo and include in my remarks what Tim mentioned,
and I'd also like to add as far as the appropriateness I don't feel that this proposal, it does not follow
the guidelines. It is intending to introduce materials and dimensions that are not there now, its not
replicating the original opening, its narrowing it down with an additional sill and header and jamb,
its introducing new materials that are not found on this house and the additional window sill and
jambs add a dimension and change the proportion and scale of the building that's not acceptable.
There's been information presented that the windows can not be restored, nor were bids for the same
provided, and as a matter of fact the applicant acknowledged that the windows can be redone. As far
as the detriment, I think that allowing this to move forward would be a, would really diminish the
character of the neighborhood generally if it were allowed to happen over and over, and in particular
to the fabric of this building. I don't think that there's been a demonstrated hardship to the applicant,
and he's not given us any options other than what's been provided, and that's the reasons for my no
vote.
Hostetler: Catherine Hostetler, I am voting no. This is a local landmark, it's a most significant
house, and is the second most significant house in the Chapin Park neighborhood. I think that its
more than just a window issue, I feel that it's a foundation issue in the bay. Putting brand new
ll
windows in would be like putting rectangles into a trapezoid. Within S years you'd be replacing 41
everything again. It would be like throwing good money after bad because its not really solving the
fundamental problems going on there with the house. I don't think that its going to cause a hardship
to the owner because aluminum clad windows are exactly the same price as the all wooden windows
which could be primed... Joann, I did..
Sporleder: The total cost is more for the wooden windows, as you have outlined.
Hostetler: Thirteen dollars is not a significant hardship for a primed wooden window.
Sporleder: That's just primed, it doesn't include the paint.
Zeiger: Madame Chair...
Hostetler: So there's not a significant dollar difference percentage wise that would present a
hardship from goingfrom aluminum clad to regular wooden window. Its also against the guidelines,
these windows are not beyond repair, and they should be preserved simply because of the status of
this landmark in the neighborhood.
Patrick: Thank you.
Sporleder: I have a question. Several people have stated that this is a local landmark, I didn't know
it was a local landmark, I thought that it was just part of a historic district. When did we make it a
local landmark?
Patrick: (Reading from staff report) Local landmark, Chapin Park local historic district.
Klusczinski: A plaque from Peter Nemeth is affixed to the front door.
Sporleder: Ok, thank you.
Peterson: As a Robert's Rules of Order here...a motion is on the table to approve it, but that motion
has failed, and the Commissioners have all stated their reasons to against it. As a point of order, we
now need a motion to off cially deny it, and each Commissioner can simply incorporate what they
previously said with their vote, as apart of their denial this time.
Patrick: I'll entertain a motion to deny this Certificate of Appropriateness.
Klusczinski: I move to deny Certificate of Appropriateness 2006-1108-A.
Zeiger: I'll second that.
Patrick: Now do we each have to state our reasons again?
Peterson: [unintelligible — away from microphone]
Zeiger: Todd Zeiger, my reasons as previously stated flow into this motion please.
Chase: Mary Jane Chase, same.
Klusczinski: Tim Klusczinski for comments previously noted.
Patrick: For comments previously noted. The inappropriateness for this particular landmark, the
potential detriment to this house, and the lack of hardship shown.
Peterson: Let the record show that you are voting for the denial.
Patrick: I am, against. Thank you.
Riley: I'm voting nay. I feel that it is a hardship for the applicant and I think that if I understand it
correctly, he can't put in Marvin windows and be wood and be painted and they will look from the
outside as it should, and he's willing to save the old windows for a time later when there's another
homeowner and they want to put them back in, then it can be done.
Choitz: I thought that I did this once.
Patrick: We're doing it again.
Choitz: Well, I'll say it quite the same way. I am ... opposed to..
Sporleder: No, you want to vote yes.
Choitz: Why?
Sporleder: Because it is a negative motion.
Choitz: Oh yes. Oh, I don't know. You've got me confused to the point that...
Patrick: Counselor?
Peterson: Do you vote to deny this application?
Choitz: Yes, I did vote to deny the application.
Peterson: For the reasons that you previously stated?
Choitz: And the statements that I made before still stands. Is that ok?
Patrick: Yes. Thank you Counselor. Thank you Martha.
12
Sporleder: I vote no to this negative thing, because all of the statements that were made before are
largely unsubstantiated by fact. Thank you.
Patrick: Very well.
Hostetler: I vote no.
Patrick: The vote is now totaled and the decision can be announced.
Riley: She should vote yes.
Hostetler: I'm voting in favor of the denial.
Patrick: Shawn, you did that to us.
Peterson: You did it to yourself, you hardly ever have someone move to approve it when you're
actually going to deny it.
Patrick: We did it to ourselves which is often the case. Now the vote is totaled, and the decision can
be announced. Who has taken the tally?
Herdman: Which tally do you want?
Patrick: I'd like the tally for the decision to deny.
Herdman: In the decision to deny- 6 Commissioners voted in favor of denial, 2 were opposed and
one Commissioner is absent.
Patrick: Very well. So the motion is...
Peterson: The application is denied.
Patrick: The application is denied. This is like some sort of twilight zone. That issue is concluded. I
thank everyone for their attention, their input and all of their thoughts and labors and efforts that
have gone into this. We'll be moving on with our agenda.
Motion to deny Certificate of Appropriateness 2006-1108-A:
Motion: Klusczinski Second: Zeiger In favor: Klusczinski, Zeiger, Chase, Patrick,
Choitz, Hostetler
Opposed: Riley, Sporleder
Absent: Ujdak
B. LANDMARKS
1. 853 Forest - Third Reading
Klusczinski: I move to send a favorable recommendation to the Common Council regarding
designation of 853 Forest Avenue, the Charles E. Clipfall House as a local landmark.
Riley: Second
Patrick: l would ask far any discussion for the motion on the floor. If there is any discussion on
this. If not, I'd like to call for a vote.
Zeiger: Aye, Todd.
Chase: Aye, Mary Jane.
Klusczinski: Aye, Tim Klusczinski
Patrick: Aye, Lynn Patrick
Riley: Aye, Linda Riley.
Choitz: Aye, Martha Choitz.
Sporleder: I'm abstaining, Joann.
Hostetler: Aye, Catherine.
Patrick: And the motion is carried.
Motion to send a favorable recommendation to Common Council regarding designation of 853
Forest Ave as a local landmark.
Motion: Klusczinski Second: Riley In favor: Klusczinski, Zeiger, Chase, Patrick,
Choitz, Hostetler, Riley
Abstained: Sporleder
Absent: Ujdak
13
41 C. NATIONAL REGISTER NOMINATION
rthside Blvd.
Catherine Hostetler made the announcement that Walker Field Shelter House and No
Riverwall were listed on the National Register of Historic Places effective 9/27/2006.
III. REGULAR BUSINESS
A. APPROVAL OF MINUTES
October 16th, and 21st 2006
After clarification of a question posed by Commissioner Sporleder, the Minutes as listed above
were approved.
Moved (16th): Hostetler Second: Choitz Vote: 7-0
Abstention: Zeiger
Moved (21$): Hostetler Second: Choitz Vote: 6-0
Abstention: Zeiger, Chase
B. COMMITTEE REPORTS
1. Treasurer's Report
■ Location Report of 10/31/2006 was submitted.
2. President's Report
■ Contact will be made shortly with those that are listed on the current draft of potential Advisory
Board members. Commissioner Chase pointed out an incorrect address on the draft which has
been corrected.
■ President Patrick is exploring the possibility of a partnership with Zen Cafe to create a special
coffee to be used as an HPC fundraiser.
■ President Patrick appointed the following to be the nominating committee for 2007 HPC Office
holders: Commissioners Chase, Choitz with Commissioner Riley as an alternate. All
Commissioners accepted their appointments.
3. Landmarks
■ A motion was made to suspend the agenda to allow Commissioner Zeiger's power point
presentation of South Bend landmarks to follow the Staff Reports.
Moved Klusczinski Second: Chase Vote: Unanimous
Commissioner Zeiger closed the meeting with a presentation highlighting the variety of city
landmarks and their locations within South Bend. Commissioner Zeiger thanked Wayne
Doolittle, Amy Herdman and Julie Schutte for their assistance with the presentation.
C. STAFF REPORTS
Director's Report — Catherine Hostetler
Distributed to Commissioners.
Hostetler: We've got 3 things that we need to vote on. First of all, the renewal of the Inspector's
Contract for 2007, beginning January 1". Renewing Wayne's contract for not more than 30
hours a week at a rate of $22.00/hour.
Moved Zeiger Second: Klusczinski Vote: Unanimous
Hostetler: The second proposal is to increase the Assistant Director's salary up to $30, 000.
Riley: From what?
Hostetler: 28, or 27.
Riley: So moved.
Chase: Second.
Patrick: All in favor? (Ayes are heard) Opposed? (1 Aye)
Moved Riley Second: Chase Vote: 7-1
Opposed: Sporleder
14
F sL
Patrick: With no opposition then...
Hostetler: Joann, she just voted nay.
Patrick: Oh you voted nay?
Sporleder: I did.
Patrick: I'm sorry, it sounded like aye. The motion carries with one negative vote.
Hostetler: And then the Director's salary to increase it to $40, 000.
Patrick: From?
Hostetler: $36,050.
Chase: So moved.
Klusczinski: Second.
Patrick: In favor? (Ayes are heard)
Sporleder: I'm opposing. The county generally speaking is trying to freeze salaries...
Hostetler: This comes from the City.
Sporleder: The city is trying to do the same thing.
Hostetler: We get a grant.
Patrick: Martha, did you vote?
Choitz: No, I didn't. I vote with everyone else.
Patrick: I take that to mean that you vote aye?
Choitz: Aye.
Hostetler: Thank you.
Patrick: Well earned.
Moved Chase Second: Klusczinski Vote: 6-1-1
Opposed: Sporleder
Abstaining: Hostetler
Patrick: We also have an issue regarding RestoreMichiana?
Hostetler: Yes. I would like a motion to approve out of our budget to spend up to $10, 000 to
partner with HLFI for the 2nd Annual RestoreMichiana Conference.
Patrick: And this money comes from?
Hostetler: Our budget.
Patrick: Excellent.
Zeiger: Just a note that I will abstain, but I'd like to comment about it.
Chase: When is the date?
Patrick: We haven't set a date yet, but we should get our committee together very soon.
Catherine and I had lunch today and also last week and we talked about it. We're going with a
different venue and a little bit earlier in the year, the weather was way too nice last time, and the
Century Center was more than we wanted to spend and we've got a lot of ideas and we'll get
together with the committee soon. I think though that the first thing to do is to get... did we
already do a motion to...?
Hostetler: No.
Patrick: May I have a motion from somebody?
Klusczinski: I move to appropriate up to $10, 000 for the RestoreMichiana program.
Patrick: Do I have a second?
Choitz: Second.
Patrick: A second by Martha Choitz. All in favor? (Ayes are heard) Opposed? (Silence)
Zeiger: I abstain.
Moved Klusczinski Second: Choitz Vote: 7-0
Abstaining: Zeiger
Zeiger: I just wanted to note that its our anticipation in meeting with Catherine and Amy, we met
about this and we looked over last year's budget and looked ahead to this year and we've more
realistically estimated how many people will come, and how much we'll charge. Its my thought
that we'll recoup most if not all of the $10, 000 that you're encumbering. There just needs to be a
pot of money to use to get the thing set up. Once we get it going, its our expectation that we'll
recapture those dollars that can then be used again in future years. We're reducing the amount
15
spent on printing and copying and on rentals, so I don't foresee the total amount of the $10, 000
just going away, but we do have to have a pot to get started with.
Patrick: I'd also like to mention that the Commission wants to work much more closely with the
planning on this year. I know for me, and I think Tim as well, we want to be sure that we're
really pulling in the traces. We want to try to make a bigger contribution.
Zeiger: Come on down.
Patrick: Ok, we've had our Directors and Assistant Directors reports distributed. Onto legal.
Assistant Director's Report — Amy Herdman
Distributed to Commissioners.
Legal Report — Shawn Peterson
Distributed "Application Procedures for Certificates of Appropriateness" for Commissioner
review and future discussion.
IV. OLD BUSINESS
V. NEW BUSINESS
VI. HEARING OF VISITORS
Don Sporleder reported on the Design Charette held on 11/11/2006 regarding the S. Michigan
corridor/National Register District, and announced that the charette will meet again in mid-
January.
Klusczinski: I move to adjourn.
Chase: Second.
Patrick: All in favor? (Ayes are heard) Opposed? (Silence)
Moved Klusczinski Second: Chase Vote: Unanimous
16
If
Location Budget as of 11-30-2006
Note: Includes transactions after the last posted date of 06-30-2006.
Fund 001 County General for 01-01-2006 thru 11-30-2006
Loc 037 Historic Preservation
Account
Object Description
11075 Deputy Director
000
General GovT.
_ 11309
Historic Preservation Admin.
000
General GovT.
10000
Totals ...............................................
21030
Office Supplies
000
General GovT.
22010
Gas Oil & Lubricants
000
General GovT.
22120
Garage & Motor Supplies
000
General GovT.
20000
Totals ..............................................
31070
Other Contractual Services
000
General GovT.
32020
Travel
000
General GovT.
32050
Instruction & Training
000
General GovT.
32053
Public Relations
000
General GovT.
32200
Telephone
000
General GovT.
32350
Postage
000
General GovT.
33010
Publication Of Legal Notices
000
General GodT.
User ID ksobecki
Saint Joseph County
Unencumbered
Unexpended
Appropriation
Encumbrance
Expenditure
Balance/Percent
Balance/Percent
30,000.00
0.00
26,769.12
3,230.88
3,230.88
10.77
10.77
36,050.00
0.00
31,890.42
4,159.58
4,159.58
11.54
11.54
66,050.00
0.00
58,659.54
7,390.46
7,390.46
11.19
11.19
1,750.00
82.57
1,664.91
2.52
85.09
0.14
4.86
1,000.00
0.00
479.90
520.10
520.10
52.01
52.01
700.00
0.00
197.64
502.36
502.36
71.77
71.77
3,450.00
82.57
2,342.45
1,024.98
1,107.55
29.71
32.10
61,092.60
0.00
46,541.01
14,551.59
14,551.59
23.82
23.82
700.00
0.00
571.03
128.97
128.97
18.42
18.42
800.00
0.00
550.00
250.00
250.00
31.25
31.25
2,871.00
0.00
1,363.44
1,507.56
1,507.56
52.51
52.51
160.00
0.00
12.00
148.00
148.00
92.50
92.50
2,660.00
0.00
2,338.61
321.39
321.39
12.08
12.08
500.00
0.00
113.58
386.42
386.42
77.28
77.28
12/04/2006 3:23 PM
Page 1
Location Budget as of 11-30-2006
Note: Includes transactions after the last posted date of 06-30-2006.
Fund 001 County General for 01-01-2006 thru 11-30-2006
Loc 037 Historic
Preservation
Account
Encumbrance
Object
Description
33100
Printing
000
General Gov`T.
37100
Auto Lease
000
General Gov T.
39010
Dues & Subscription
000
General Gov T.
39600
Refunds, Awards & Indemnities
000
General Gov`T.
39750
Data Processing
000
General Gov`T.
39980
Funds W/O Approp.
000
General GOVT.
30000
Totals ...............................................
44250 Office Machines
000 General Gov7.
40000 Totals ...............................................
Location Totals .................................................
Investment Accounts
Transfer Accounts
Saint Joseph County
User ID ksobecki 12/04/2006 3:23 PM Page 2
Unencumbered
Unexpended
Appropriation
Encumbrance
Expenditure
Balance/Percent
Balance/Percent
8,528.00
5,528.00
895.53
2,104.47
7,632.47
24.68
89.50
500.00
0.00
85.77
414.23
414.23
82.85
82.85
750.00
0.00
309.98
440.02
440.02
58.67
58.67
0.00
0.00
8,514.00
(8,514.00)
(8,514.00)
0.00
0.00
1,500.00
0.00
8.29
1,491.71
1,491.71
99.45
99.45
0.00
0.00
44,100.00
(44,100.00)
(44,100.00)
0.00
0.00
80,061.60
5,528.00
105,403.24
(30,869.64)
(25,341.64)
(38.56)
(31.65)
800.00
3,670.00
465.00
(3,335.00)
335.00
(416.88)
41.88
800.00
3,670.00
465.00
(3,335.00)
335.00
(416.88)
41.88
150,361.60
9,280.57
166,870.23
(25,789.20)
(16,508.63)
(17.15)
(10.98)
0.00
0.00
166,870.23
Saint Joseph County
User ID ksobecki 12/04/2006 3:23 PM Page 2
HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION MEETING DATES
2007
JANUARY 22
FEBRUARY 26
MARCH 19
APRIL 16
MAY 21
JUNE 18
JULY 16
AUGUST 20
SEPTEMBER 17
OCT'O [3C-1 ,15
NOVEMBER 19
DECEMBER 17
7!OU-?M,
Director's Report December, 2007
------------- ---
November 27 Common Council Committee and Common council Meeting
for landmarking 1013 East Jefferson. Passed Unanimously.
November 28 Permit Committee Meeting Loading all of HPC data into
Building Permit system
November 29 Botanical Society Meeting at Howard Park
November 30 Attended Press Club's "'Meet the Winners" Reception at
Potawatomi Greenhouses
December 5 County Council Meeting for Budget Transfers
December 11 Northern Indiana Center for History Finance Committee
Meeting
December 12 County Commissioners' Meeting on Budget Transfers
December 14 Leeper Bridge Meeting with INDOT & on site inspection
Lights to be installed on Bridge in January
Madison School visit as location for Restore Michiana
Date
r
Name
Address
City
Dear
The Historic Preservation Commission of South Bend and St. Joseph County amended its
by-laws to allow for non -Commission members to be appointed to its standing
committees and to create an Advisory Board to assist the Commission in achieving its
objectives. It is hoped that it would also expand the breadth of community involvement
in the Historic Preservation Commission. The members of the Advisory Board would
also be professionals that could assist the Commission in their area of expertise. I have
been asked by the Commissioners to extend an invitation to you because of your
expertise in the field of and because of your interest in historic preservation.
Your commitment to the Advisory Board would be for three years and would involve
quarterly meetings each year. The Commissioners would appreciate it if you would give
this proposal your favorable consideration. Please let the office know at your earliest
convenience.
Sincerely,
Catherine D. Hostetler,
Director
Assistant Director's Report
HPC Meeting —12-18-2005
■ Met w/Mikki Dobski on several occasions to continue planning SB City
Celebration for 2007.
■ Took receipt of and mailed (with the help of Patrick and Kelly Klucszinsk)
the Winter newsletter.
■ Met with DTSB staff to discuss SB City Celebration.
■ Visited landmark at 19109 Johnson Rd regarding complaints from neighbors
about minimum maintenance standards.
■ Attended two code enforcement hearings regarding 225 S Michigan, and
1114 LWW.
■ Prepared minutes from November meeting.
■ Staffed table at the County City Building to sell NPC calendars.
z
■ Attended neighbors meeting regarding 705 LWE. .
• Attended meeting with Beth Davis and Jennifer Jackson of the Mayor's
office regarding logos and graphics for SB City Celebration.
■ Wrote Cornelius O'Brien grant application for a visitor to St. Paul's to follow
up on Six at Risk.
■ Met with Liz Maredik of Community Development regarding Taylor's Field.
■ Arranged site visit for Madison School, site of Restore Michiana 2007.
■ Attended HLFI's Christmas gathering, thank you Todd!
■ Addressed HPC Christmas cards. Ho ho ho.
MINUTES OF A MEETING OF THE
HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION
OF SOUTH BEND & SAINT JOSEPH COUNTY
December 18, 2006
4`h Floor Council Chambers
County — City Building, South Bend, Indiana
Members Present: Lynn Patrick [President], Mary Jane Chase [Secretary], Catherine Hostetler, Martha
Choitz, Joann Sporleder, [Architectural Historian], Tim Klusczinski, [Treasurer] Shawn Peterson [Legal
Counsel], Linda Riley, Todd Zeiger, Jerry Ujdak
Staff Present: Catherine Hostetler [Director], Amy Herdman [Asst. Director],
Others Present: Don Sporleder, , Bendan Crumlish, Bill DePalma, Ron DePalma Sr., Robert Culp.
I. CALL TO ORDER, ROLL CALL: President Lynn Patrick called the meeting to order at 7:35pm.
H. PUBLIC HEARING
A. CERTIFICATES OF APPROPRIATENESS
Application Number: 2006-1113
Property Location:
Property Owner:
Landmark or District Designation:
Rating:
1515 East Wayne Street
Peggy and Bill Soderberg
East Wayne Street Local Historic District
Contributing
STATEMENT OF SIGNIFICANCE/HISTORIC CONTEXT: Whitcomb and Keller built this H.R-. -
Stapp -designed house in 1926 as a rental property. It remained a rental until its purchase by Geraldine and
Dr. George Green in 1937. The house remained in the Green family until 1991 when its current owners,
Peggy and Bill Soderberg, purchased the house.
APPLICATION ITEMS: Replace the 8 South facing windows and 1 east second floor bedroom window
with Crestline's Crestfit vinyl clad wood pocket replacement windows. The windows will be wood double
hung with 6 over 1 replicating the current windows. The current windows are warped, sagging and will not
hold paint either on the interior or the exterior.
East Wayne Street Standards: II Existing Structures, C Windows and Doors. Window and doorframes
are of wood or steel (some casements) or in the case of brick structures, stone sills and brick lintels. Where
metal or vinyl siding has been applied, window trim has been covered. Storm windows are of wood or
aluminum.
Required: Original windows and doors shall be retained including sashes, lintels, sills, shutters, decorative
glass, pediments, hoods, and hardware. When deteriorated beyond repair, they shall be replaced with units
and trim resembling the original.
Recommended: Wood frame storm windows and doors painted to match the original should be used but
should not damage existing frames. If new sashes or doors are installed, the existing or original materials,
design and hardware should be used. When metal storm doors are used, they should be painted, anodized or
coated to match the existing. When awnings are used they should be of canvas material.
Prohibited: Original doors, windows and hardware shall not be discarded when they can be restored and
reused in place. New window and door openings which would alter the scale and proportion of the building
shall not be introduced. Inappropriate new window and door features such as aluminum insulating glass
combinations that require removal of the original windows and doors shall not be installed.
Not Recommended: Awnings, hoods, and fake shutters made of metal, vinyl, or fiberglass should not be used
if they would detract from the existing character or appearance of the building.
RECOMMENDATION: The 1932 Portage Township Assessor Card notes additions and modifications
throughout the 1930s and 1940s including a second story room over the back porch addition that has since
been removed. The 1987 survey card of 1515 E. Wayne Street notes the building integrity of this house as
altered -major. The entire exterior is aluminum sided with aluminum storm windows and there are very few
visible original architectural features on this house. Staff recommends approval of the replacement windows
for the deteriorated windows with the stipulation that the original windows be stored.
Hostetler: The homeowner is not here.
Patrick: Very good, and there's no builder or architect here?
Hostetler: No.
Patrick: I'll recognize any Commissioners with questions for the staff regarding this Certificate
of Appropriateness.
Klusczinski: I have one. Was our Specialist able to assess the condition of each window listed in
the proposal?
Hostetler: Yes, Wayne went out there and looked at the windows, but did not have access to the
interior.
Klusczinski: Did he make a report?
Hostetler: Just that they were sagging and that they looked pretty bad.
Ujdak: Tim, I was out there this afternoon, and he kinda walked me through it although I didn't
go in. He said that they're in pretty bad shape. The other windows have all been replaced over
time.
Kiusczinski: So these are the last of the original?
Ujdak: Apparently so, yes.
Klusczinski: Oh.
Riley: The whole house is vinyl siding, you're not altering anything original.
Ujdak: No.
Klusczinski: Is it vinyl siding?
Hostetler: Aluminum.
Riley: Aluminum, sorry.
Ujdak- Well, It's been resided
Klusczinski: Of the other windows that have been replaced already, are they vinyl clad or ...?
Ujdak: I believe that he said that they were aluminum clad.
Klusczinski: So this is a different replacement species...?
Ujdak: Oh yeah, different company, different... He didn't say how long ago the others were
replaced, but I think that he said that there had been two sets of replacements over time. This
part of the house, that part of the house.
Patrick: Any other questions from Commissioners?
Sporleder: In the picture it seems to indicate that there are aluminum storms on the outside?
Hostetler: On some of them.
Sporleder: We are talking about these windows across the front of the house, right?
Hostetler: Yes, that's correct.
Sporleder: So what's going to happen with the aluminum storms and all that stuff? Are they
insulating glass, or are they still using storms or..?
Ujdak: As I understand it, they're still using storms.
Sporleder:I think that it would be interesting if we just had a little bit better understanding.
Ujdak: I know.
Sporleder: The description of the windows which I've read through don't seem to indicate
whether insulation glass or not ... and it does say that there is a screen that comes with it, though
it doesn't say where the screen is.
Ujdak- It's an attractive well-maintained home.
Sporleder: Certainly is.
Choitz: I wonder if it had been checked at what point the siding was put on, as far as having it in
a District.
Hostetler: It was sided when it went in.
2
Choitz: I mean the siding or any of the other earlier windows, were they before the District was
formed?
Riley: I believe it was before.
Choitz: Do you?
Ujdak: I think that you're right as I understand it.
Choitz: Really? Because I don't recall ... I worked on that Wayne Street thing hard, and I don't
recall their having any, that that house ever came up for....it was probably done before.
Hostetler: It was.... well, there's a picture of it in the guidebook, and if you look at that picture,
and there's a copy of it in that file, it looks like it was aluminum siding when it went in to the
District and that's why it was only rated Contributing.
Ujdak: It looks that old 8 inch, that was probably 25 or 30 years ago.
Choitz: If that was done back then, there's no use talking about it. As long as they don't' want to
change it, everything just stays the way that it is.
Patrick- If there are no further questions from the Commission, I'll recognize any public who
wishes to speak on this matter either for or against. Seeing none. If there's no additional
elements for presentation, I'd like to close this public hearing, and if there's no further
discussion, or finding of fact....
Peterson: Just one comment here, the staff recommendation says that they recommend approval
contingent upon the stipulation that the original windows be stored. Because the petitioner is not
here, and I'm not sure if you've talked with him or not, in some ways if you add that stipulation
on it, you are in effect denying it, contingent upon their accepting it. So, it would be considered a
denial, with the procedure of a denial, with the hope that they would accept that. So, its kind of a
weird thing that we don't normally run into, but because they're not here we can't really amend
their certificate without them agreeing to accommodate that request.
Patrick: So, we have to make a motion to deny unless they accept that stipulation?
Peterson: Yes, effectively. If you make the motion to say accept with the stipulation, you are
effectively denying it, unless they...
Patrick: But they can do the work then if they accept that stipulation?
Peterson: Well, I don't know, it's a weird... You have before you something that you need their
consent to amend.
Hostetler: No, because its our procedure to always say that the original fabric, I mean that's
standard operating procedure from Day One of the Commission. Unless I'm wrong, Joann.
Spotleder: Its usually requested, but its usually part of, I mean, I think that I would go with what
Counsel says, because the way that we've always done it may not necessarily have been correct.
John always insisted that they keep it, but they were usually there to acquiesce in that.
Peterson: I think that its semantics in some ways, but the fact is that if they don't agree to it, you
are effectively denying it. If they subsequently agree to it, and you make your approval
contingent upon it, then you know, their subsequent agreement to it would be enough to give the
authority to move forward, so ... I don't care what you do.
Sporleder: Thank you, Counsel.
Hostetler: We could table it, or put it into committee.
Patrick: Well, people are going to vote ... 1 mean, I don't know how people are going to vote on
this, I mean, I'm inclined to approve it...
Ujdak-Absolutely.
Patrick: And I really don't want it coming back around in January, maybe what we could is
going forward is advise people that if you're not present, it could be tabled, or if you don't have
someone there present to speak for you.
Hostetler: He did receive the letter, he received a copy of the agenda, and he did receive a copy
of the staff report.
Patrick: Mmm-hmm.
Peterson: [Unintelligible]
Patrick- I would rather move forward on this rather than it come back around in January.
Ujdak: Absolutely.
K3
Patrick: So I'd like to have someone make a motion that we approve replacement of the windows
contingent on their holding the old windows in basement or safe and secure storage, which is to
say that we are effectively denying it unless they do save the windows. And staff shall
communicate with them to ensure this is, and advise the Commission if in fact they do not agree
to this. Otherwise, we'll consider this matter resolved, contingent upon their accepting our
contingency.
Choitz: Iso move.
Patrick: Do I have a second?
Riley: Second.
Patrick: All in favor? (Ayes are heard)
Sporleder: I would like to abstain.
Patrick: We have one abstention.
Riley: That's application number 2006-1113?
Patrick.• Yes.
Peterson: We can do the evidence at the next meeting we can evidence their signature on a
document that they'll maintain the original windows.
Klusczinksi: Wait a minute, I had a denial.
Patrick: Ole
Klusczinski: I deny the C of A under that criteria.
Patrick: I'm sorry,
Klusczinski: Right, we didn't...
Patrick• We can do a roll call.
Klusczinski: Tim Klusczinski, I deny C of A 2006-1113 we have no mechanism to police
directives like the storage of original windows and doors when this criteria is bound to the C of
A, nor can we guarantee that a future owner might violate these convemants at any time.
Therefore, I'd strongly caution any member of this Commission from permitting changes with this
appeasement. I deny this C of A since the petitioner and the application failed to sufficiently
prove, tonight, that all nine of the designated windows were beyond repair allowing an exception
to the East Wayne guidebook. But the benefits sought by the petitioner could not be achieved
through restoration of the existing windows, that the exterior vinyl cladding is an appropriate in-
kind alternative to aluminum clad or all wood complements. That the replacements will
satisfactorially match the openings, scale and proportion of the existing ones, and that hardship
upon this denial is expected.
Patrick• Mary Jane?
Chase: I approve on the condition that the windows be saved, and that's self-explanatory. If they
don't save them, then...
Zeiger: Aye. Todd, I voted aye.
Patrick: I, Lynn Patrick, vote aye, because I believe that the condition of this house of this house
has been sufficiently altered that in this situation this is the most appropriate response.
Riley: Linda Riley, I vote aye.
Choitz: And I also vote aye, I fully agree with the President.
Ujdak: Jerry Ujdak, I vote aye.
Sporleder: I'm Joann Sporleder, and I am abstaining. I would like to suggest that all the denials
need to state their reasons for denying, however.
Zeiger: Why don't you state your reason for why you're abstaining?
Riley: Yeah.
Sporleder: I don't need to explain why I'm abstaining, I'm abstaining from voting.
Peterson: I think that its appropriate to those that voted aye to the motion to state why they
desire for the original windows to be kept. In a way, you are denying this if they do not accept
that aspect. So you do need to say why you want them to keep that original aspect at least.
Patrick: Because that is a stipulation in the guidebooks. In all of the guidebooks.
Zeiger: Are we going to go through and do that?
Peterson: Just those that did not offer reasons before.
4
Zeiger: This is Todd, I voted aye because replacement windows will probably be replaced in a
few years anyway, so at least the original ones would be there to serve as a guide for either
restoration at that time, or re -installation.
Peterson: I think that Linda was the other...
Riley: I voted aye as long as he agrees to store the original windows.
Choitz: I'd like to get on with it, and let them have a chance to get on with it at the beginning of a
new season.
Ujdak: I'm voting aye, and I see no problem here. I think that Mr. Soderberg is an honorable
man, and will comply. So, let's get on with the project, and let's get on with the meeting.
Patrick: Catherine?
Herdman: Catherine, I didn't record your vote.
Hostetler: Aye.
Hostetler: Staff was not alerted by the Soderberg's that they would not be here, we had no way of
knowing, and its not customary once we send out the letters to call the applicants to see if they're
going to be present.
Motion: Choitz Second: Riley In favor:, Zeiger, Chase, Patrick,
Choitz, Hostetler, Ujdak, Riley
Opposed: HIusczinski
Abstaining: Sporleder
Application Number: 2006-1122
Property Location: 733 Bronson
Property Owner: Robert Culp
Landmark or District Designation: Edgewater Place Local Historic District
Rating: Contributing
—STATEMENT OF SIGNIFICANCE/HISTORIC CONTEXT: This vernacular gabled ell is thought to have
been constructed in 1892 by William H Harper, a grocery store owner and real estate developer. The house was
eventually sold to William Garfield in 1901, a piano tuner, who lived there for 40 years. It was also owned by
several others including Mary Unger nee Dreibelbis who operated a Beauty Parlor in the house during the 1940s.
The current owner purchased it after Barbara and Larry Sehl abandoned the house in 2006.
APPLICATION ITEMS: The owner has engaged DePalma Home Remodeling to vinyl side the house and to
paint the windows, soffits and fascia.
Edgewater Place Standards H Existing Structures, A. Building Materials Original exterior wall materials in
the District range from brick, clapboard, shingles, and masonry block to aluminum siding. In the majority of the
cases the aluminum siding has been applied over the original clapboard. There are some masonry commercial
buildings on Lincolnway.
Reouired: Existing exterior building materials shall be retained. Deterioration of wood materials shall be
prevented through repair, cleaning and painting. The existing architectural detail around windows, porches, doors
and eaves should be retained or replaced by replicas of the same design and materials when deteriorated beyond
repair...
Recommended: Whenever possible, the original building materials should be restored. Aluminum or vinyl siding
may be used when it is the only feasible alternative to maintaining the original surface material. When used over
wood surfaces, this siding should be the same size and style as the original wood. However it must be noted that
such material can contribute to the deterioration of the structure from moisture and insects....
Prohibited: Wood siding shall not be resurfaced with new material such as artificial stone, brick veneer, asbestos
or asphalt shingles which is inappropriate or was unavailable when the building was constructed....
See attached for complete the Standard concerning all building materials.
5
RECOMMENDATION: The contractor proposes to apply vinyl siding over the existing asphalt shingles which
were applied over the original clapboards. It is noted on the 1985 survey card that the integrity of this home was
altered -major and was only in fair condition. Its condition did not improve over this 21 year period. While the
application of vinyl siding is not ideal, it will more closely resemble to original clapboards and no original
features are going to be removed. Staff recommends approval with the stipulation that the contractor agrees to
restore the deteriorated drip moldings above the windows that were removed.
Patrick: Thank you. Are the homeowner or contractor present? Will you step up to the podium
please? Please identify yourselffor the record.
DePalma: Bill DePalma.
Culp: Bob Culp.
Patrick: And Bob Culp, you are the owner?
Culp: Yes, ma'am.
Patrick: Do I have any questions from Commissioners? Tim.
Klusczinski: I had a question for staff. Is this the right point for that?
Patrick: Actually, this is the point where we question the homeowner or presenters. But if its
germaine to what you're going to ask them?
Klusczinski: Yes. Will you be modifying the windowsills with the addition of a third exterior
siding layer to extend below past that?
DePalma: We had plans on building out the existing jamb to actually overlap the j -channel
(unintelligible)
Klusczinski: And the crown contains the drip cap?
DePalma: Yeah. {unintelligible) We're going to re -install those, and like I said we're going to
build out the casement around the windows, so the new wood that sticks out beyond the j -
channel. (unintelligible)
Klusczinski: So you're going to attach a strip to the front nose of the window sill.
DePalma: Yes, I'm going to actually bring the whole window treatment out. Its going to look
exactly like it does now. (unintelligible)
Klusczinski: When you extend the drip cap at the top, you're going to have a different situation I
assume then what you had originally in the house with its first layer of clapboards. For every
inch that you grow it out this way, its about 5/8 taller, right? To maintain the same drip slope?
DePalma: Yes, its going to up a little, and out a little...
Klusezinski: A couple of inches, right?
DePalma: Huh?
Klusczinski: At least a couple of inches
DePalma: Out to the j -channel would be 1112 inches, or 4 inch on each side, % on the top just to
cover the j -channel. Personally, when we looked at the property to begin with, it looked like the
asphalt siding had been brought into the casing a little bit, it cut off about an inch of it. I was
trying to give (unintelligible)
Klusczinski: Ok, thank you.
Zeiger: I have a quick clarification question then. This application is just talking about applying
siding, but what you're talking about is re -casing the entire window which is additional work
that's not on the application. Additionally then, to just follow up on what Tim was asking, as you
getup towards the top of the soffit, you have a crown mould that meets the soffit. What do you
intend to do with that?
DePalma: We were going to j -channel up to the crown moulding (unintelligible)
Zeiger: So the crown molding will be back behind the j -channel as far as depth?
DePalma: It's about 3/8 of an inch back, but its not... we could bring it out if that's what we
needed to do. That would entail a little more work than what we expected, but...
Zeiger: We have a picture here dated November 21, 2006 that shows vinyl siding on the house is
that work that's already started that you caught, so this is a retroactive application?
Hostetler: Yes.
Patrick: My question is for Mr. DePalma. Have you looked under that asbestos, asphalt I'm
sorry, asphalt siding to see what the condition of the wood is underneath?
0
DePalma: Just on the parts where its fallen of. I thought that would be the best place to look.
They'd already been off for a number of months or years or whatever...
Patrick: Could you speak into the microphone please?
DePalma: Where the asphalt siding has fallen off, and I don't know when it had fallen off, we
looked at those spots since they were exposed, and they were solid, so I assume that the rest of the
property is solid. I didn't go around and check but there are numerous spots around the house
where asphalt siding has fallen off and you can see the clapboards behind it. We, notched into
with a hammer, and it all felt pretty solid to us.
Patrick: So the wood underneath this is in fair condition?
DePalma: On the parts that I saw. If you see on the pictures...
Patrick: Yes.
DePalma: I've got pictures of my own too. There's a big chunk off of the South side of the house,
and that's what I am referring to. As you go on the other side, the north side, where they put in
air conditioning units and you can, you can kinda take the plywood out and see the studs and
everything. It all seemed pretty solid to me.
Patrick: So really if you wanted to, if you weren't an aluminum or vinyl siding contractor you
could remove it and the original wood be restored in your opinion?
DePalma: Oh yeah, there would be some holes to fill. Obviously the house has been added onto
a lot with garages and sheds and whatnot. What our goal was to bring some consistency to it,
and to get it back to looking like a single family house instead of all pieced together. That was
basically my goal. I don't know what's under the additions, they seem to be additions to me. I
didn't really look too close, but with say the flat roof coming off of the back; I don't think that
was originally built on with the house. I don't know what's behind that. I don't know if they did
the asphalt siding when they did the additions to tie it all together to look like the same house?
But, that's my guess.
Patrick: Ok
Chase: The asphalt siding looks bad.
DePalma: Very bad.
Chase: So if you have, assuming that the condition of the wood is fairly decent, because if it
wasn't you'd have deterioration with deterioration locked in with new siding. Is there any
evidence on the inside of the house that deterioration is going through?
DePalma: No.
Chase: Any of the walls?
DePalma: Not at all, the house is pretty solid.
Chase: If this is, in driving by and seeing this, the asphalt is in very bad condition. Is it wise to
seal this damp siding with another siding and sort of envelop it between?
DePalma: I see what you're asking.
Chase: Over time are you going to be dealing with mold and insects and things?
DePalma: With vinyl siding, its pretty... it breathes easily I believe. I've installed a lot of it. And
to me, I mean you can nail it tight...
Chase: My question is ifyou are encapsulating the problem? Instead of taking the problem off
and going with the siding that was there originally. If by putting it over this asphalt, its
deteriorated, its in very bad shape, if you're encapsulating a problem?
DePalma: I don't see it that way, maybe others do, but I really don't ... I've done many homes,
and I've always sided over...
Chase: Even really damaged..?
DePalma: We side right over it.
Chase: Right over it, huh?
DePalma: And we don't have any problems.
Chase: Well, I'm wondering if in S years if the owner would have problems.
DePalma: I would know because I manage the propertyfor the owner for a long time after we
sell them the property. I'm pretty confident in it myself. Its made it this long with the asphalt
siding, the clapboards and no insulation. Then somebody insulated the house, and that helps a
lot. I feel pretty secure about it myself.
7
Klusczinski: I had kind of a follow up. Contrary to what you've said, I disagree and take issue
with the idea that vinyl breathes. Because it doesn't. So, in cases like this, you would generally
install a vapor barrier on new construction. Are you installing a vapor barrier on this?
DePalma: I hadn't planned on it. Just because of our past history. I've been doing homes for
about six years and 1 have yet to have any call backs for siding over asphalt siding. So,
technically, for me, on a house like this I wouldn't install a vapor barrier all, I would just side
over it.
Klusczinski: And trap the moisture? Did you obtain a building permit before you began the first
stage of the project?
DePalma: I went the same day and got denied because I didn't know it was in the historical area.
That's why I made the mistake, normally we'd do all this before we touched the house...
Klusczinski: So the building department doesn't mandate a vapor barrier?
DePalma: No, it wouldn't.
Klusczinski: And that's not the reason for the denial?
DePalma: They wouldn't say ... I would just say 1 was vinyl siding, and its X amount of dollars
and they charge me, to get the permit. I went the same day, and I had crew out there, and got
denied basically, and so we had to stop on it.
Chase: Is it customary to get your permit the day that your crew is starting work?
DePalma: No, that's not how we do it, that's my mistake.
Riley: What do you plan to do about the windows that's not mentioned in your C of A?
DePalma: With the windows, those seem to open and function pretty well. We were just going to
salvage them, scrape and paint and make sure that they open well. Normally, we'd install
aluminum storm windows, we also can on other historic properties that I've worked on found the
existing storm windows for the property in the garage, and we refurbished those and put them
back on, those wooden ones. We have to seal them up someway, because single pane is
inefficient.
Sporleder: I wanted to get back to the vapor barrier thing ... I think that if this house has been
after-the-fact insulated which apparently it is, that putting a vapor barrier on the outside maybe
is not a good idea. It potentially traps moisture in the insulation which causes more rotting. I
think that your notion of keeping everything a little bit more open is probably a fairly good idea
under these apparent circumstances.
DePalma: On new construction, I would install a vapor barrier, without question. With a house
this old and in this good of shape structurally, it doesn't look the best, but its solid and I feel that
its made it this long. I don't think that they vinyl siding would hurt it anymore than its been in the
last 21 years.
Sporleder: May I follow up on what Mary Jane said? Would you be adverse to simply taking off
the asphalt siding and then proceeding from there either painting and restoring the wood or then
covering it if you find that the wood siding is not really restorable and then come back for
another C of A to side it?
DePalma: Um...
Sporleder: I mean, I don't know how much of a hurry you're in here.
DePalma: We're always in a big hurry, we like to turn the house as quickly as we possibly can.
At this point, I'm willing to do whatever you guys want me to do so that we can move forward
with the property. Whether its removing the asphalt siding and installing a vapor barrier with
the vinyl siding...
Sporleder: Personally, I don't think that you want a vapor barrier, with the blown in insulation,
that's probably not a good idea.
DePalma: At this point we're willing to do whatever... that's why from the day that the
representatives of yours were there we have created the plan to build out the window casing to
cover the j-channel to make it look original. These are things that we added.
Patrick: You continued to work since we were there?
DePalma: No, no no no.. Bob and I have talked about how to retain the historical look of it,
that's all. That's what I was talking about with the window casing and doing one by sixes
covering the j-channel.
Patrick: I've had another question down here. Tim?
Klusczinski: And maybe Todd has more familiarity with this, but aren't there vapor barriers that
you install on the inside walls over the wallcovering? And I'm not suggesting a windbreak,
which would go on the exterior side of the house because a vapor barrier should go on the inside
and sometimes that's 6 mil polyethylene. But, the after or the um, old construction alternative
goes on like a wallpaper, and that sufficiently keeps the moisture from penetrating the wall cavity
to incur things like mold infestation.
Sporleder: But you're talking about on the inside? Not on the outside?
Klusczinski: Yes. Vapor barriers don't go on the outside. Right, but windbreaks do, and that's
the tyvek wrap and stuff like that, so they breathe moisture, but the vapor barrier prohibits
moisture, so there is another way of accomplishing it. Just so everyone knows.
Culp: Can I say something?
Patrick: Yes.
Culp: The idea of removing the asphalt shingle would be the first consideration however, we
don't know what it beneath them on the home. So if we start to remove them with that plan,
there's no guarantee that we're going to recover clapboard on the entire home. The vinyl siding
seems like the best option to make the home complete and whole again. That's why we wanted to
go that particular route there over the asphalt shingle that's on the house now. Having
purchased the house for X amount of dollars, the budget is limited because of the appraised
value.
Patrick: What is the appraised value?
Culp: I'm anticipating it to be in the mid -70's when all is said and done. It's not been appraised
yet because the home's not complete, but once it's complete, we'll have the official appraisal.
Preliminary market research is...
Patrick: Is this being bought to turn or to rent?
Culp: It's going to be sold.
Patrick: Hmm-hmm. I would think that someone buying a house in a historic district would
prefer to have the original siding. I know that there's no guarantees that there's going to be
clapboard under there, but I'll bet that there probably is.
Hostetler: On the original part of the house, but these many subsequent additions...
Culp: At least half of the house is additions.
DePalma: That was our fear in tearing off anything.
Patrick: Even if they restored part of it ... and didn't find clapboard on the back, just do siding on
the additions, Todd.
Zeiger: It's not just up to me.
Patrick: I know, I'm just asking your opinion.
Zeiger: I'm sorry, I have a bad voice today. I just wanted to clarify what the application is that
we're really considering. What's on the application in front of us is siding, painting windows,
soffits and facing, or facia as we're calling it. What I'm understanding you're really proposing is
siding the house, and building out all of the jambs. That's different than what you applied for
and what's in front of us. Am I correct in what I'm stating back to you in that you're proposing
to build out all of those jambs?
DePalma: In a way, I thought that it would make you a little happier.
Zeiger: Doesn't matter what makes us happy or not, I'm trying to understand what the
application is at this point. To answer your question Lynn, it probably would be possible to
expose the clapboard siding on the original part of the house, and then do some sort of a match
of color with different siding on the additions if its not there. There are lots of different ways to
do construction. They are going to have issues with regard to the blown -in insulation in those
walls though.
Patrick: What do you mean?
Zeiger: It holds (possibly 'pulls') water.
Patrick: Yeah.
Zeiger: So the vapor issues are significant and are a concern. I also have a concern you're
putting, how are you going to install the vinyl, you're going to have strips going up on the outside
to hold the vinyl?.
DePalma: Strips.
Zeiger: And you're going to nail the strips to the asphalt siding that's...
DePalma: In my thought, that would-be a little much, it brings the siding out even further from
the...
Zeiger: So you're proposing nailing the vinyl right to the asphalt siding.
DePalma: Yes, it hugs up to it pretty nice.
Zeiger: Ok, I just wanted a clarification.
Patrick: Mmm-hmm.
Zeiger: I don't have any other questions.
Patrick: I'd like somebody to make a motion on this if there's no other questions about this and
no member of the public to speak for or against? Counselor has a comment.
Peterson: Just be clear on the motion that you're asking for. There have been various proposals
set forth, so, whoever submits the motion please be specific as to what you're asking for.
Patrick: Thank you. I'd like either Todd or Tim to make the motion, because it requires
tremendous specificity.
Zeiger: I move that we deny Certificate of Appropriateness 2006-1122 as it does not follow the
guidelines as set forth by the district.
Klusczinski: Second.
Patrick: All in favor that we deny...
Zeiger: We should do a roll call because...
Peterson: Yes, you need to do a roll call.
Patrick: Yes, lets do a roll call, sorry. We'll start with you, Tim.
Klusczinski: Because the petitioner exhibited an openness to honor alternate wishes from this
Commission body for the property, and it does seem that it's appropriate to at least remove some
of the asphalt siding and see what's there and if we need to honor a C of A at a later time to
amend whatever is missing on some of the additions. I think that's the right way to go.
Approving this C of A as is would forgo that opportunity.
Patrick: Mary Jane?
Chase: I would deny because the statement of the work to proceed-siding, painting windows,
soffit, facia, is not exactly what we've talked about. We've talked about covering windows, so
we're talking about doing something that isn't written. And, I think that a lot more work has
been done already and not getting the proper paperwork done after being in the business for this
many years is sort of inexcusable.
Zeiger: My purpose for denial is simply that the guidelines talk about and require that the
original building materials should be restored, and only covered when that's the only alternative.
I believe that the clapboards underneath all of this are in good shape, that's been my experience
with these sort of houses, the clapboards are usually in good shape, and I think that we need to
explore that before we approve vinyl siding in this district.
Patrick: I, Lynn Patrick, move to deny, on the basis that the description of the proposed work
doesn't match what they're actually talking about, and because its not in compliance with the
standards of the neighborhood, it sounds to me as if this house is very sound, and I agree that
they have not explored other options, and I lookforward to a revised Certificate of
Appropriateness on this.
Riley: I vote to deny the application. I would like to see whatever is on the side of the house
removed to see what's underneath.
Choitz: I vote to deny because I don't believe that enough is known about the layers ofsiding
that's been put on and not enough attention has been brought to it. Beyond that, I'm very
concerned with having someone with some proper knowledge of window treatment on the outside
of the house, as you being that, make sure that its appropriate to that style of house. What I've
seen here, isn't satisfactory at all and we've got people on the staff here that can give you a lot of
help for what would be the right surrounds for those windows, and it would make a vast
10
difference in the way that the property would look once that is done. Just make sure that it is in
the right era and so I deny for that reason.
Ujdak: My vote would be to approve the Certificate of Appropriateness, I think that we've just
gone a little bit too far with this. This is much ado about nothing. Almost anything will help the
appearance of this house, ifyou've been out there and looked at it.
Patrick: I have. I look at that house almost every day.
Ujdak: Almost anything would help.
Sporleder: I vote to approve partially because its easier to vote that way.
Patrick: I'm sorry?
Sporleder: I vote to approve, period.
Patrick: Did you vote Catherine?
Hostetler: No, I did not. I wrote the staff report, so obviously I vote to approve but I do express
concern because the application specified that they were going to just side the house and paint
the trim and the facia and the soffits. It didn't look like the walls were going to be done, but the
architectural features were still going to be able to be seen, and that doesn't seem to be the case
now.
Patrick: Ok It's been denied.
Motion: Zeiger Second: Klusczinski In favor:, Zeiger, Chase, Klusczinski
(to deny) Choitz, Riley, Patrick
Opposed: Hostetler, Ujdak, Sporleder
Sporleder: Are we going to give them any suggestions of what they can do next?
Patrick: We'll ask staff to communicate with us as you expose what's under the asphalt. You can
call the office and they can call us and let us know.
Culp: How fast of a turn around can this be because we're going into winter right now, I've got
about another week that Bill's crews can be outside.
Patrick: We all live locally, so as soon as you call and say that you've got something to show.
Culp: So we don't have to wait a full month then?
Patrick: As far as exposing the asphalt and underneath?
Culp: As far as taking it to the next level to get approvals so that we can get working on the
outside because if we go into winter we could be into March.
Peterson: You'd have to call a special meeting to approve it.
Patrick: Yeah, if we had to, we could call a special meeting to approve it. We have done that in
the past.
Culp: Ok, so once we expose the clapboards then call for someone to come out and review it and
make that determination at that time?
Sporleder: No, that's not right. I'm sorry, I'm pretty sure you'd have to apply for a C ofA to
take the existing siding off.
Hostetler: No.
Sporleder: I don't'see why not, that's changing the exterior and to take the existing siding off
and they would need a C ofA to do that.
Patrick: Not when its done with the view of either restoring the house or seeing if we're going to
approve this.
Sporleder: Any exterior change to something in the historic district requires a C ofA before they
proceed.
Herdman: Is that something that could be staff approved?
Zeiger: Who's the question to?
Herdman: Anybody that knows the answer!
Sporleder: Staff could approve it as far as I'm concerned.
Riley: Fine by me.
Ujdak: Let's hearfrom the counselor.
Peterson: If you...you can authorize staff on a motion to approve it if its for the purposes of
inspection. To be honest, Ido not know answer as far as whether they can remove the current
11
asphalt siding for the purposes of keeping it that way. I think that far inspection or investigation
you could do a limited staff approval for something like that.
Zeiger: I'll make a motion to allow for staff to approve the removal of the existing asphalt siding,
I think that its something that we've done in the past. I'd make that motion.
Sporleder: I'll second that motion.
Patrick: All in favor. (Ayes are heard) Any opposition?
Motion: Zeiger Second: Sporleder In favor:, Zeiger, Chase, Patrick,
Choitz, Hostetler, Ujdak, Riley
Sporleder, Klusczinski
Culp: So you're saying remove all of it, or just spots for a check?
Hostetler: Wouldn't it have to be all of it?
Zeiger: We've given that authority to the staff to work with the homeowner.
Peterson: Yeah, I think that would be a prudential question...
Culp: A costly question too.
Peterson: and once you start removing it, there's really no going back, or putting it back on.
You obviously have established budgets, but overall, the issue does exist that you would
permanently be altering the structure without a plan to restore, if you just removed it all. So, I'd
think that a limited or at least some point of what 's necessary to investigate would be
appropriate.
Culp: One final clarification so that everyone would be aware; the design that Bill was
describing about the window trims and the jambs was to give it the classy look, instead of the j -
channel to the side of the window cheap look. That's what we were trying to avoid and wanted to
achieve here today, present something that was a little more than the average.
Patrick: Thank you.
B. LANDMARKS - None
C. NATIONAL REGISTER NOMINATION — None
III. REGULAR BUSINESS
A. APPROVAL OF MINUTES
Minutes were approved as presented by unanimous vote.
B. COMMITTEE REPORTS
1. Treasurer's Report
Commissioner Sporleder had some questions regarding line item issues on the submitted location
reports. Catherine Hostetler explained the information contained the budget reports.
2. President's Report
President Patrick, and Nominating Committee Member Martha Choitz, shared the results of their
meeting. Their proposed slate of officers for 2007 are: Tim Klusczinski for President, Lynn
Patrick for Vice President, Mary Jane Chase for Treasurer and Todd Zeiger for Secretary. The
slate of officers was approved unanimously.
Catherine distributed a draft of the letter that will be sent to potential Advisory Board members.
No action was required.
12
C. STAFF REPORTS
Director — Catherine Hostetler
Catherine distributed her Director's Report.
To comply with Open Door Law, and to ensure that all of the Tribune's information is accurate, a
discussion and decision was made by the Commission regarding meeting times and locations for
2007.
By an 8-1 vote (Riley voting nay), the Commission has set the 2007 meeting time as 7:00pm.
Also by 8-1 vote (Ujdak voting nay), the Commission has set the 2007 meeting location as 1308
County -City Building
Assistant Director — Amy Herdman
Amy distributed her Assistant Director's Report.
IV. OLD BUSINESS
V. NEW BUSINESS
Voting to approve Nominating Committee's slate of 2007 HPC Officers
Motion: Sporleder Second: Riley In favor: Unanimous
VI. HEARING OF VISITORS
Don Sporleder was recognized to speak.
/11
I _Z (>�
Todd Zeiger Date
Secretary
Historic Preservation Commission
Of South Bend and St. Joseph County
NOTICE OF MEETING
OF THE
HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION
OF SOUTH BEND & ST. JOSEPH COUNTY
NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN THAT A EXECUTIVE SESSION OF THE HISTORIC
PRESERVATION COMMISION OF SOUTH BEND AND ST. JOSEPH COUNTY
(THE"COMMISSION") WILL BE HELD ON DECEMBER 27, 2006 IN THE CONFERENCE
ROOM OF THE OFFICE OF HISTORIC PRESERVATION AT 125 SOUTH LAFAYETTE, SOUTH
BEND INDIANA 46601, COMMENCING AT 5:15 PM. THE PURPOSE OF THE MEETING
WILL BE TO DISCUSS MATTERS PURSUANT TO INDIANA CODE 5.14-1.5-6.1(Bx2XB).
HISTORIC PRESERVAYTION COMMISSION OF SOUTH BEND AND ST. JOSEPH COUNTY
President
Dated: December 22, 2006
EXECUTIVE SESSION OF THE HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION OF
SOUTH BEND AND ST JOSEPH COUNTY
DECEMBER 27, 2006
CALLED TO ORDER: 5:32 by Lynn Patrick, President
MEMBERS PRESENT: Mary Jane Chase, Tim Klusczinski, Linda Riley, Amy
Herdman (Staff), Rom De Palma (Contractor), Jerry Ujdak, Todd Zeiger, Catherine
Hostetler (Director), Ron De Palma (Contractor)
Lynn: We have two documents. First is the application number ... with the minute from
the meeting. We do not have at this point a new C of A.
Catherine: No. The C of A as applied for was for siding, painting the windows, soffit and
fascia.
Lynn: Now this evaluation that Tim Klusczinski has done regarding the property...
Catherine: Was done because the Commission mandated that the Staff go out and take a
look at the condition of the siding to determine whether or not the original clapboards
were in any shape to be completely restored.
Lynn: And you made the comment that this was serving as the staff report.
Catherine: Yes, because Tim was out there with us and then he went through and
summarized everybody's opinion and so this is what we have.
Lynn: OK, Since Tim wrote up this document and summarized everything; I am going to
turn this over this portion of the meeting to Tim.
Tim: OK.
Lynn: Has everyone had a chance to read this?
Tim: And that may be the best way to proceed, if anyone has any questions about the
evaluation. Basically, there were spot check investigations to be done in some places
where some of the green asphalt siding, you can see that in the pictures, was removed to
reveal some of the original clapboard. To date, unless, the De Palma Home Remodeling
Company can say otherwise, I don't think that anything more has been done on the house
other than the spot checks for the siding.
Rom: No, there hasn't.
Tim:. OK.
Linda: How much are you going to take off before you put the siding on?
Rom: When we met over there the other day, Tim and I both come to the conclusion that
it would be a good idea to remove the asphalt siding to expose the old clapper board to
where when we put our new vinyl siding our J Trim will give it a more professional,
more aesthetic appeal, you know, with the J Trim butting up against the window trim
rather than kind of overlapping and then further causing us possible water damage or, you
know, such and so forth.
Linda: And what are you going to do about the siding that is already on?
Rom: Our vinyl siding? We will have to remove and salvage it and use it back in places
where we can; and that's a loss that we'll have to suffer, but we're Okay at this point.
And we had talked about rebuilding the drip -mold across the tops of the windows where
necessary as you can see in the pictures.
Tim: I had a brief question for staff. Based on the sampling areas are you satisfied with
the determination or conclusion that this original clapboard cannot be restored?
Catherine: Yes, there are just too many different variations on this house. There is the
original part of the house, there was the garage that was built, Lord only knows when, but
has been incorporated into the house, plus there was an addition put on the back of the
house with a completely different type of siding. What the vinyl siding will do, is just
basically, mimic the clapboard siding on the original part of the house and give the entire
house a more uniform look.
Todd: How are the comer boards to be handled,then? The comers?
Rom: Comer posts, vinyl comer posts.
Lynn: I have a question, based on what was discussed. It was my understanding that
there was going to be more of the asphalt taken off to evaluate. Have you taken off any
since the last meeting?
Rom: Yeah, when we had met out there we had exposed a pretty good area of it and seen
that it, we did it around a window, and it looks like years ago somebody had done
replacement windows before they put the asphalt siding on and that's been patched
together. It wasn't a very good look.
Catherine: There has been a lot of cobbling together with this house.
Rom: Yeah, and Wayne Doolittle had assessed that it had at least three additions. I
believe Tim agreed with us on that when we were looking at it and kind of found out
where we thought the original home was, and it ended
Jerry: About here. (Referring to the photgraph)
'FA
Rom: Exactly, Homeowner A added here, Homeowner B added here, Homeowner C put
it over here; it looks like everyone was trying to accommodate their living situation and
this is what we have now.
Jerry: And somebody put these big windows in here
Rom: Yes
Jerry: Which were probably doubles at one time
Rom: Yes, yes and you can see where we tore off right by the porch how it's been
scabbed together underneath there and the clapper boards have been removed and then
what ever material....
Jerry: There might have been two windows there at one time.
Rom: Exactly, you're probably right.
Lynn: So, you are going to remove the asphalt siding before the vinyl layer is installed?
Rom: Yes, that is what we agreed upon, that would give it a better look. Right.
Lynn: And you are going to do caulking for the gaps that do occur?
Rom: Yes, Yes
Lynn: And what about the vapor barrier?
Rom: As far as....
Lynn: According to what Tim wrote there is a paint -able vapor barrier.
Catherine: That's on the interior.
Rom: And he was going to get me some literature on that.
Tim: Sherwin Williams and Glidden and a number of manufacturers now make
something that you can paint on the inner walls and...
Rom: That is something that we will check in to.
Lynn: And you would be willing to do that?
Tim: Check on to or willing to do? Because we have to for the point of the meeting -
have a commitment.
3
Mary Jane: Lynn: It's like a primer. It is similar to a Primer. It would act as a primer.
Tim: Has the inside of the house been painted?
Rom: Yes, yes it has. It's something that we would be willing to do.
Todd: Can you review, for me, what was the plan for the trim around the windows and
the soffits and the gables and that sort of thing, please?
Rom: The soffits and fascia were to be scraped and painted the accent color of hunter
green. We were going with a white vinyl siding with a hunter green trim and so the soffit
and fascia wasn't going to be altered other than scraped and, you know, painted to the
color match. With the drip mold on the tops of the windows that had them, we were
going to reconstruct them to look as they did before they were removed. I was advised by
Wayne Doolittle to use wood not vinyl, not try to find a vinyl trim piece that they may
make to put up there, like a pre -Tabbed vinyl piece. He would rather it be made out of
wood and then painted green with the color scheme that we had planned on going with
the house.
Todd: When you get the asphalt off, just so everybody can think through this, there are
going to be corners. Corner trim as well that defines the corners of the house, here and
here and in the front of the house. There are going to be four plus, five inch wide corner
boards where that clapboard butts into. I think that that should be treated as trim and not
sided over with vinyl.
Rom: Now the corners that we seen, there was a significant amount, if you are wanting
us to remove, like lets say if there is any damage on the stuff that is closest to the ground,
you would rather see that J Trim to that, and the corners stay wood and painted. Is that
what you are asking?
Todd: That is generally a trim piece, a trim detail on the corners of these houses that
define the edges of the house so that it doesn't just disappear, that's all.
Rom: My only concern is that if there is any kind of rot, and then if you prefer for us to
do it that way then that can be done that way and we can just J Trim to the corner and we
can just go up the existing, get the proper measurements and cut them to fit. That would
eliminate using the vinyl corner posts.
Todd: Exactly.
Rom: But, I am going to have to seal the J Trim to the wood with a silicon caulk...
Todd: It's a standard thing that's been required by the Commission in the past.
r.I
Jerry: You leave this thing open and you these corners open for leaks.
Rom: That's my concern, because the vinyl protects it, for, for good. That does expose
it, but by caulking -there are preventative measures I can take if this is what will get us
going on this.
Tim: Can you specify the caulk, now.
Rom: Specify??
Tim: Silicon or latex? If it's latex, it doesn't really bond that well ... to wood.
Rom: Silicon.
Tim: Right, and you are willing to use silicon caulk?
Rom: It would have to be a100% silicon caulk.
A discussion of the virtues of various silicon caulks ensued between Rom, Jerry and Tim.
Rom: If I am going to leave the corners with the natural wood I am going to paint them
green just to, I think it would look far better, because like we had talked, I believe it was
you (Lynn) that made the comment about what we could do to accent the corners rather
than them being white. And I think that it would look fantastic if it was green along with
the soffit and fascia and the window trim. I think that would look very nice.
Todd: Just like the house across the street.
Rom: Yeah, basically, basically.
Todd: No, exactly like the house across the street, white and green trim
Tim: I think it was the northeast corner of the house or the northeast side, when they did
the initial installation of the vinyl siding it went just about all the way to the ground. And
I know that we discussed that just a little bit and I think that the remedy for that was that
you were trying to conceal whatever asphalt shingle was present on the house in that area
and bring your vinyl all the way down to the ground. Has it been determined, once the
asphalt shingle is removed, if you wouldn't need to go down as far?
Rom: Here's what my plan for that was. We were going cut six inches up and take a 1 "x
6"treated piece of lumber and wrap it in aluminum. Okay? And basically it would look
like a frieze board around, then you would have your frieze board look and then you
would see your block underneath. Okay? And being that it is treated and wrapped in
aluminum and then we'd J trim to the top of that, I think that that would look very nice.
5
And, and it's a protected lumber, number one it's treated and number two it's wrapped in
aluminum and I don't see how that is taking pretty good measure to prevent that from
rotting.
Tim: Has the foundation, let me say this, do we have an anti erosion issue here? Is there
more ground than there was when the house was built and is it concealing the brick
foundation? So, I know that in the rear of the house there were negative grade issues and
you were going to try to re -grade it so that the water would not infiltrate back into the
crawl space and foundation.
Rom: Right. Right.
Tim: Is that the same situation, though, on this northeast corner or north side of the
house to where if you re -address the ground so then you wouldn't have to add the frieze
board?
Rom: Well without digging into it further I would not know. I was coming at you with
this plan of attack hoping that it would resolve that entire issue. Then the only other
problem we could attack after that would be the negative grade of the land. You know
what I mean?
Tim: I'm just not sure, I guess in my mind, completely comfortable with the remedy that
you were talking about and I was trying to see if we could incorporate some of the other
landscape pians to see if you could solve it that way.
Rom: Well, my only concern with that is, is that from where the house sits I have the
alley way to contend with and I have the street to contend with; so to change the grade of
the land I would almost have to bring that up in order to slope it down and I can't change
the street and I can't change the alley. And if I dig down all I am doing is creating a huge
valley. Yes, I could make it slope down but it's only going to hit the alley way and only
hit the street, and then boom, then we have a puddle and I don't think...
Tim: And I don't think that you will ever be able to do any more than what was done
there originally, unless there's a lot of ground swelling, that's taking place. It just looked
higher than what was there originally.
Rom: And that's why I suggested cutting up into it and expose what was there because
like I had said when we were our there that I am, I am confident there is a few layers of
brick underneath that siding and, but I am not sure. But I think that if I can expose at
least six more inches of brick, we would be perfect then we don't have to add anything
there. Don't you agree?
Tim: Right. Less is more.
Rom: But if the case comes that; I cut into it and there aren't any more brick, then the
treated lumber wrapped in aluminum would be a sufficient fix for the problem.
C'!
Jerry: I think that that would work all right. I think that that would be rine.
Todd: I have one last question regarding the painting -if you are finished with that line of
questioning. I guess that I am just curious, your COA is to do the paint, you know, on the
windows, your intention is to paint the window sash? Is that your understanding? And
how are you going to accomplish that in December?
Rom: We use, like I explained to Catherine and Amy, we have to pick and choose our
days. Right now, the longer we wait the harder it is for me. But if I have 32 degrees or
higher there is a paint at my paint distributor, UCT-United Coating Technologies, there is
a paint designed for cold weather. And it is an exterior paint and if I have 32 degrees or
warmer, I am safe to use this and it will adhere. And that is what I was explaining to
these guys, that time is of the essence, right now.
Tim: Is that a vinyl based paint?
Rom: A vinyl based paint? No, this is a oil-based paint.
Linda: Have you ever done it in that kind of weather?
Rom: Yes. We have been in business six years and we do this all day, every day.
Linda: And it lasts?
Rom: Yes, and the only time, when it gets to certain... like the snow's flying and it's
freezing and there is no way around it we, ah, we, like with the Section 8 properties,
problems occur then we get a Paint Waiver until the spring. And then as soon as spring
hits we have a half a dozen garages we gotta go and scrape `em all down and get `em
painted real quick and then they come and re -inspect: That's if it's a Section 8 home.
Most of the time we can get away with that, too, with the appraisals and the underwriters
understand the same situation.
Jerry: Linda, actually, actually, painting at a little bit lower temperature causes the paint
not to dry so fast, soaks into the wood a little farther and tends to hold longer.
Linda: Well do you use a primer?
Rom: No.
Tim: But also, Jerry, it closes up the pores of the wood and it doesn't allow any
penetration that way, too, so there's another...
Jerry: I know, I know, well, nothing is perfect.
Tim: No, it's not.
7
Jerry: This is northern Indiana, it's tough.
Rom: We just don't one coat. A primer? A primer is to eliminate so many coats of
paint. We just apply the paint, apply the paint and apply the paint until we are satisfied
with the paint. It doesn't matter, if one coat covers beautifully, great, good for us. It may
take seven coats, you know. But, basically the primer sealer it depends upon what
material we are putting it on, if it is a smooth surface and there is no way for us to etch it
to make the paint adhere an oil based primer will go on first and then the paint that we
apply will adhere to it and then we are safe to go with that.
Tim: So, then in this situation you would apply an oil based primer first? First order of
business?
Rom: No, I would not. The exterior paint is an oil based paint. So, it would not need a
primer and plus there is already several layers of...
Tim: But even regular oil based paints need a primer, because the primer is the binder
and it keys into the wood and then...
Rom: No, no, as long as that wood, as long as I expose a layer, if I just brush over this
table with sandpaper, right here, and I put paint on that, that paint's gonna stick as
opposed to just putting paint on there even if I put primer right there. You know what I
mean? As long as I provide an etched material, an etched surface it will adhere.
Jerry: So, basically what you are going to do is scrape as much as you can...
Rom: Yes, we will scrape everything loose...
Jerry: ...and then roughen and rough the surface
Jerry: and there will be a mechanical adhesion.
Linda: Well originally you talked about laying vinyl over the sills but now you are going
the scrape and paint the sills and leave it.
Rom: Yes, to preserve the more natural look. We had come to the conclusion. And we
are going to build. Remember how we talked, we were going to cap over the window sills
to where the new dog ear, well you can't see over the bottom (referring to photograph),
but on the lower parts of the window....and we are going to rebuild those...
Tim: There may be two windows that the sills are split lengthwise from expansion or
whatever...
A discussion between Rom, Jerry, Linda and Tim concerning the windows ensued at this
point.
Lynn: Have everyone's questions been addressed?
Linda: Do you want a motion? I make a motion that we approve this application COA
2006-1122 as revised by Tim Klusczinski and presented
Todd: Read those amendments into the motion
Lynn: The soffit and fascia to be scraped and painted, drip mold to be reconstructed with
wood, corners to be left exposed as a trim detail to define the edges, the vinyl to be run
up to those J trim to the corners, this will eliminate the earlier discussed vinyl corner
posts, they will seal them to the trim with 100% silicon caulk.
Tim: They will re -paint with an interior vapor barrier. Remove the vinyl already
installed so that they can remove the asphalt siding to the clapboards.
Lynn: Anything else?
Linda: To repair the sill.
Tim: Yes, and just to be generic to adjust the negative grade.
Jerry: To the extend that you can and I would also suggest downspout extensions
Rom: Yes, we are putting on full new gutter system and downspouts and extensions.
Linda Riley: So moved
Mary Jane: Second
Lynn: All in favor: Six Ayes
One Nay Todd Zeiger, didn't feel the COA followed the guidelines
EXECUTIVE SESSION OF THE HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION OF
SOUTH BENDAAND ST JOSEPH COUNTY
DECEMBER 27, 2006
CALLED TO ORDER: 5:32 by Lynn Patrick, President
MEMBERS PRESENT: MaryJane Chase, Tim Klusczinski, Linda Riley, Amy
Herdman (Staff), Rom De Palma (Contractor), Jerry Ujdak, Todd Zeiger, Catherine
Hostetler (Director), Ron De Palma (Contractor)
Lynn: We have two documents. First is the application number ... with the minute from
the meeting. We do not have at this point a new C of A.
Catherine: No. The C of A as applied for was for siding, painting the windows, soffit and
fascia.
Lynn: Now this evaluation that Tim Klusczinski has done regarding the property...
Catherine: Was done because the Commission mandated that the Staff go out and take a
look at the condition of the siding to determine whether or not the original clapboards
were in any shape to be completely restored.
Lynn: And you made the comment that this was serving as the staff report.
Catherine: Yes, because Tim was out there with us and then he went through and
summarized everybody's opinion and so this is what we have.
Lynn: OK, Since Tim wrote up this document and summarized everything; I am going to
turn this over this portion of the meeting to Tim.
Tim: OK.
Lynn: Has everyone had a chance to read this?
Tim: And that may be the best way to proceed, if anyone has any questions about the
evaluation. Basically, there were spot check investigations to be done in some places
where some of the green asphalt siding, you can see that in the pictures, was removed to
reveal some of the original clapboard. To date, unless, the De Palma Home Remodeling
Company can say otherwise, I don't think that anything more has been done on the house
other than the spot checks for the siding.
Rom: No, there hasn't.
Tim:. OK.
Rom: Exactly, Homeowner A added here, Homeowner B added here, Homeowner C put
it over here; it looks like everyone was trying to accommodate their living situation and
this is what we have now.
Jerry: And somebody put these big windows in here
Rom: Yes
Jerry: Which were probably doubles at one time
Rom: Yes, yes and you can see where we tore off right by the porch how it's been
scabbed together underneath there and the clapper boards have been removed and then
what ever material....
Jerry: There might have been two windows there at one time.
Rom: Exactly, you're probably right.
Lynn: So, you are going to remove the asphalt siding before the vinyl layer is installed?
Rom: Yes, that is what we agreed upon, that would give it a better look. Right.
Lynn: And you are going to do caulking for the gaps that do occur?
Rom: Yes, Yes
Lynn: And what about the vapor barrier?
Rom: As far as....
Lynn: According to what Tim wrote there is a paint -able vapor barrier.
Catherine: That's on the interior.
Rom: And he was going to get me some literature on that.
Tim: Sherwin Williams and Glidden and a number of manufacturers now make
something that you can paint on the inner walls and...
Rom: That is something that we will check in to.
Lynn: And you would be willing to do that?
Tim: Check on to or willing to do? Because we have to for the point of the meeting -
have a commitment.
3
Jerry: You leave this thing .open and you these corners open for leaks.
Rom: That's my concern, because the vinyl protects it, for, for good. That does expose
it, but by caulking -there are preventative measures I can take if this is what will get us
going on this.
Tim: Can you specify the caulk, now.
Rom: Specify?!
Tim: Silicon or latex? If it's latex, it doesn't really bond that well ... to wood.
Rom: Silicon.
Tim: Right, and you are willing to use silicon caulk?
Rom: It would have to be a100% silicon caulk.
A discussion of the virtues of various silicon caulks ensued between Rom, Jerry and Tim.
Rom: If I am going to leave the comers with the natural wood I am going to paint them
green just to, I think it would look far better, because like we had talked, I believe it was
you (Lynn) that made the comment about what we could do to accent the comers rather
than them being white. And I think that it would look fantastic if it was green along with
the soffit and fascia and the window trim. I think that would look very nice.
Todd: Just like the house across the street.
Rom: Yeah, basically, basically.
Todd: No, exactly like the house across the street, white and green trim.
Tim: I think it was the northeast corner of the house or the northeast side, when they did
the initial installation of the vinyl siding it went just about all the way to the ground. And
I know that we discussed that just a little bit and I think that the remedy for that was that
you were trying to conceal whatever asphalt shingle was present on the house in that area
and bring your vinyl all the way down to the ground. Has it been determined, once the
asphalt shingle is removed, if you wouldn't need to go down as far?
Rom: Here's what my plan for that was. We were going cut six inches up and take a 1 "x
6"treated piece of lumber and wrap it in aluminum. Okay? And basically it would look
like a frieze board around, then you would have your frieze board look and then you
would see your block underneath. Okay? And being that it is treated and wrapped in
aluminum and then we'd J trim to the top of that, I think that that would look very nice.
5
Jerry: I think that that would work all right. I think that that would be fine.
Todd: I have one last question regarding the painting -if you are finished with that line of
questioning. I guess that I am just curious, your COA is to do the paint, you know, on the
windows, your intention is to paint the window sash? Is that your understanding? And
how are you going to accomplish that in December?
Rom: We use, like I explained to Catherine and Amy, we have to pick and choose our
days. Right now, the longer we wait the harder it is for me. But if I have 32 degrees or
higher there is a paint at my paint distributor, UCT-United Coating Technologies, there is
a paint designed for cold weather. And it is an exterior paint and if I have 32 degrees or
warmer, I am safe to use this and it will adhere. And that is what I was explaining to
these guys, that time is of the essence, right now.
Tim: Is that a vinyl based paint?
Rom: A vinyl based paint? No, this is a oil-based paint.
Linda: Have you ever done it in that kind of weather?
Rom: Yes. We have been in business six years and we do this all day, every day.
Linda: And it lasts?
Rom: Yes, and the only time, when it gets to certain... like the snow's flying and it's
freezing and there is no way around it we, ah, we, like with the Section 8 properties,
problems occur then we get a Paint Waiver until the spring. And then as soon as spring
hits we have a half a dozen garages we gotta go and scrape 'em all down and get `em
painted real quick and then they come and re -inspect. That's if it's a Section 8 home.
Most of the time we can get away with that, too, with the appraisals and the underwriters
understand the same situation.
Jerry: Linda, actually, actually, painting at a little bit lower temperature causes the paint
not to dry so fast, soaks into the wood a little farther and tends to hold longer.
Linda: Well do you use a primer?
Rom: No.
Tim: But also, Jerry, it closes up the pores of the wood and it doesn't allow any
penetration that way, too, so there's another...
Jerry: I know, I know, well, nothing is perfect.
Tim: No, it's not.
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A discussion between Rom, Jerry, Linda and Tim concerning the windows ensued at this
point.
Lynn: Have everyone's questions been addressed?
Linda: Do you want a motion? I make a motion that we approve this application COA
2006-1122 as revised by Tim Klusczinski and presented
Todd: Read those amendments into the motion
Lynn: The soffit and fascia to be scraped and painted, drip mold to be reconstructed with
wood, corners to be left exposed as a trim detail to define the edges, the vinyl to be run
up to those J trim to the corners, this will eliminate the earlier discussed vinyl comer
posts, they will seal them to the trim with 100% silicon caulk.
Tim: They will re -paint with an interior vapor barrier. Remove the vinyl already
installed so that they can remove the asphalt siding to the clapboards.
Lynn: Anything else?
Linda: To repair the sill.
Tim: Yes, and just to be generic to adjust the negative grade.
Jerry: To the extend that you can and I would also suggest downspout extensions
Rom: Yes, we are putting on full new gutter system and downspouts and extensions.
Linda Riley: So moved
Mary Jane: Second
Lynn: All in favor: Six Ayes
One Nav Todd Zeiaer. didn't feel the COA followed the mjidelinec
Todd Zeiger
Secretary
Historic Preservation Commission
Of South Bend and St. Joseph County
(-11-67
Date
AOD SOUTH BEND & SAINT JOSEPH COUNTY
HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION
DECEMBER 18, 2006 MEETING
GUESTS: PLEASE SIGN THIS LIST SO THAT
YOUR PRESENCE CAN BE NOTED FOR OUR
MINUTES
Print Name Address Signature
3 3 �or OVA oil
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