HomeMy WebLinkAbout11/07/1939 Special Mtg Board of Public Safety Minutes 40
, SPECTAL Tr� �E'i'IRTG O F TI3E BOARD CF-PUBLIC SAFETY
SGUTH BEND, IT�DIAIv'�1 �
NOVE'i�B�R rl, 1y39
A special meeting of the 3oard of Public Safety was called at
10 :30 A.�:�. , Pdove�ber 7, 1939, at the request of certain C.I.O. uniori
officials as represented by an unsi�ned letter addressed to t�e i�s�yor
on Plovember 4, 1939, and presented to and placed on file ti^rith the
Board. All mernbers �f the Board were present, together with� the I?ayor,
2nd the folloti�ving representatives of various C.�.O. organizations : �d
'��fygant, ti°Jilliam Qgden, Chester Ralston, Eldon P.iatthez-as, r.?ose ��ucela,
Jar:ies 1',�cEz�ran, r=�ack Foy, Fred Fulford, Cainiel Cooney, John Shaffer,
' Charles hassl�, and Oliver A. Switzer, Attorney for C. I.O. Counc�l from
Fort �4(ayne, Indiana.
• T�ZR. S'adITZER opened the discussion by sayin�, "S°Je �°lish to c�ll the
attention of the Board and the P.iayor to the letter vrhich was addressed
to the T!iayor on TTovember 4, 1939, as �iving �he basis of our complaint
and enlarge upon it at this time : The basis of our claim is that the
Chief �ras brou�ht here fran ��tichita, ha.nsas. VYichi�ta, Fiansas, as we
have found out, is of a different social mind than South Berd. Our or- '
ganization of tivorkers have not gone very far in ;o'ichita. 1",gost of our
z^�orkers in South �3end are in plants in z�rhich C. I.4. v�rorl� prevails. A
netiv situa�ion arises with the Chief being transplanted into the city of
South Bend because he is of a different social mind and diifererit social
attitude. His appointment, as «e stated in our letter,. caused much an-
I ta�onism because of his being brou�ht in as a straneer �o South3end.
That antagonis� has not been overcone. He, himself, has done nothing to
Iessen that a tagonisr:i. He has the ti�rrong attitude toward 1�bor in South
Bend. P�othing has ever been done and nothing nas ever been said that
ivculd alleviate that in our minds. The majority of the citizens in South
�end do not like the attitude he has ta�ren and or��nized labor can be s�id
to reflec� the minds of the ���orkers.
rle did not ccme dot�un this m.ornin� to rnake petty issue of this thing.
.�le a.re concerned about the things that he has done. The aggregate of his
attitude has been one to intensify the feel�ng reflected in the �inds of
the r.ia3arity of the people of Sou�h Bend. I believe �ve can safe�y say
that this has led to t��is crisis. I can assure you �hat C.�i.O. is �oing ,
to fight to protect certain rights ti�rhich must be safeguarded.
In tlro instances he personallv and fercefully ascor�ed through the ;
picket line those �vhom ti�e felt tivere not jus�ified in going through the
pickket line. VJe l�o�� policemen in squad cars were detailed to strikes '
��here things �rere peaceable and there tvas absolutely no hint of violence.
He, by his presence, and by the presence cf all his police officers, ��as
able to intimidate our cause. It was qv.ite a blo�v to the boys to have
this instance happen. T�ese t��ro instances crystalize the general situation.
tixJe feel tnat you are actualls public serva.rits and officials to repre- '
sent us. �ife feel safe in saying that this is the attitude of tne yJOrkers
in South Bend at the present tirie. These vrorkers are very acutely aware
of the stake t hey have and organized labor represents their only salvation.
Chief I��ram represents the only a_ pparent factor that can threa�en
organized labor v�hen he tried to break through picket lines. T�le feeling '
is �hat v�e just cantt have this man in our midst. �'Ve feel that since
tive are representing the majority of the citizens in South Bend that we
must be given recognition and are �oing to see that our rights are pro-
�ected and you, as public servants, must see that theST are. An�thing
that threa.tens to sabot��e our cause must be gotten rid of by publ,ic
servants.
I�;iAY�R PAVEY; First I yrant to tell you our policy. r'�fe feel t hat I
ti,�e are representing 104,000 people in this community and tive are here to
represen� the rights of a11 the people. I can assure you that there is
no idea in the m�nd of the Board or myself to do anythin� that i^rould harY�
an� one in the lat�ful pursuit of th�ir ti^rork or industr�, and tnat goes
for labor and ever�rone else. There cAn be no dispute on this question.
I have taken an oQth of office to see that the ordinr3nces of this
c�.ty and i,ne lavds of �he state ancl nation are carried out and as long as
I at;i here, I expect to see that that oath is fulfilled.
Chief Ingram is acting on policies laid down by the Board of 5afety.
He �ras a member of the Police Department and an officer in �'dichita, and I
do not l�oyJ what activities you refer to out� there. I prestinne tnat tvhat-
ever activities he :vas en�aged in he t��as siriply carrying out the policies
�
SFECIAZ T�iEETIIdG--T�?�VEI;�BER 7, 1939, continued 4'1
laid do;�m '�y a Board, Chief of Police or tivhatever may have been the governin�
! authority, which is the only thing that ne could do. �n, activity tnat he
may have e�zgaged in here is si.r:iply palic� laid doti�n by the Board and myself,
as ���ayor, ��rhich he is carr�in� out. :'fe are obligated to 1�'�e city of Soutii
Bend in th�� �atter of lativ enforce�ent--just as much for the protection of
�he people you represent as for the emplo�rers, professional rlen and �Il
others and tive are just as earnest in cai�r�ing out this obli�aticn as tire are in
i protecting your rights.
l�iR. R.'�LSTOTl, President af the Studebaker Union: Don�t you tnink tne
�� Board then is just as much responsible as the Chief of Police for the
i breakin� ur� of pic_�et lines? y��iho is responsible in these cases? The Board
or tne Chi�,f? �?QVd :Re have the la�v breaking the lav�.
- � �-^
, t�iR. S'��JITZER: A l�bcr dispute �ras oin � on at Glivers v�hen the Chief
b O
took men tirough the lines. '
r9iR. B�A�.�ER: e"das it a strike?
T�a?R. Oc�DEN; ��Vhat is your interpretation of a strike?
i
IvIR. BFA��iER: It is a dispute between mana�ement and labor. ;Jhat is ;
your inter,�retation, �,ir. Switzer? i
i
P?IR. S'�'1ITZER: �Ye cannot be bound by one interpret�tion. A strike is a �
matter whir,h invclves an orbanizat-ion of .^rorl�ers ���ho, by necessity, are
��'orced tc ��rotect tners�elves against conditions of er�ployr�ent.
i
i
t�IR. B7,AI,:ER: 'r'Uere you protesting any activities of your emplo;�er at I
Olivers? �,
1�7R. S'�TIiZER: Yes. � ��,
I,ZR. B];AP:.ER: Z"�zat?
� rr rr
�FZR. S�JITZER: Protesting the hiring of hitch-hikers .
?�R. �I�,A�rIER: By "hitch-hikers" you mean people ��ho have not paid their
dues to thE; union?
I:��R. SafITZER: Yes.
PY?R. B��APS�ER: So the disx�ute ther. vJas be��reen the employees ana not be-
tv��een the E;r�.plo�er and the employees. According to our ini ormation the
Chief let i:hrough only those iR�ho de:;landed to get in after the pic�cets had
refused to let them in. By the ti^ra�, P,Zr. Szvitzer, are you from South Bend?
I�R. R1�LSTGi1; That is an unfair question.
TsIR. B�:At,:ER: I don 1 t knov�r tiv�f. I don't recognize I��r. Sy�itser as a
rleinber of t,he local bar and just w:-ndered �vho he tivas.
1�iR. S'.'IITZER: Ilo, I am fror,l Fort s'dayne, but ar,i living nere no��r. Are �I
�;ou Cilairm<�n of the Board? '
' L'�R. B�;A'rtPER: Yey.
I�+iR. S;TITZER: Lo you consider a pic��et line legal?
PdR. BF,1�T,:ER: I do not think it le�al to ifeep a men out of �rorti, if ne
�rants to vac�r?: and t�ze enployer is tirillin� to have him i�ork.
��1R. S'a�ITZER: If no one �a�s l:ep� from ti�ork and t;he Ci1iei came aut and by
intimidatic�n broke up the picket line, then he would be breakin� up a legal
gathering.
i:�R. F�.VEY; You maintain t hat it is legal to keep a man out cf v�rork?
T,iR. S'�'ITZER: �"de �re not discussing �1hat is iegal and v+rhat is illegal.
It is not � question of ti�hat is laa�ful and �•rhat is net. Our contention is
t'�is : If the aggregate of the Cnief�s act ons has caused such a social un-
rest, vJe fe el justified in demanding his rer,ioval.
i3R, P�.VEI.': I�TO one should be alarmed as lon� as they are operating
legally �Tithin tne lasr. '�1e are ssrcrn to see that the laws are carried out
in this ccminunit� and as lon� as the people are not brea��ing these latirs,
I do not kr o�v zxrhy any one should be fearful.
� 4� SPEC IAL I:TLETIT1G--t?CVEi�iBER 7, 19 39, c cnt inue d
�
T,TR. RALSTOTT; You are drawing ccnclt�sions on the Oliver case. Let t s �
pasQ over to other condit-cns the sarie ricrni.n�. Le�'s refer to the ,
Sanders strike, that line t�as also broken.
T�ZR. P,�VEY: It has been the policy that tivhenever there is a strike
police are sent to keep order. T�,at goes back to the Singer stril:e, the '
sa�e tning is true of Sanders and has been true in every cther i�stance.
p��. I�:ATTriE:'dS: There had never been police officers at the Sandera
s�rike before last Friday morning. Slx carlo�ds cf workers v7ere 1et I
throu�h by the police tiaho had pulled up on both sides cf tne gates and
1�� the cars �;o through. I knew LL11.J `/V�J to be done the night before.
�"de do not �vant any riots. I still do not think police �-iould stick their
ncses in tizis. Hov^rever, they did. Pickets are instructed not to smash
cars or anything else. The city, throu�h its police, helped tal�e theni
through. If that had not happened, this turmoil would not nave happened.
These c ars had been par�:ed quite a ��ays ativay and tiviiile the police guarded
the gates, the cars drove in.
I�.TR. BEAI�r�ER: '��Je had a call t he evening before also and �arere told
that the A. I'. of L•. emplogees tivere deterrnined to go to ��or�� Friday ,
mornin5. It is true �1e sent the police. The object of the police cars
there ti�ras to see t'nat there 1^�as no violence. Qne car vras parKed ab�u�
� b1�cl, from the gate, one t^Tas par'�ed north cf the gate on t he west side
of the street, and one scuth of the gate on the east side of the street.
TTOne of the police even �ot out of tnF,ir cars, isn►t t'r�at true, I�:Ir.l�atthevJS?
P.iR. l�iATTN.E'odS: Yes, but their presence intimidated our pic.-�ets. The
dis�ute betti�een the A.F. of L. and the C .I.O. onl� arose after the police
helped the A.�'. of L. �et the r��en in. I think that only started trouble
b;� having the police there.
T{:R. BL'A��IER: Is it your contention, i�,Ir. P�iatthe�ds, that tiThen the ',
police have information �here may be tr:�uble at any given place, that '
they ahould stay as far a�1ay frcm that place as possib'le:
P,ZR. ��'IATTHE,d�: Do ;�ou send out police everJ tinie you thinl� there is ,
going to be troub"le some place?
141R. BEAT��ER: ;�de certainly do if �ve have enou�h men available. :
PriR. r,I�TT:���fS: I expect trouble an�r time at my house. ,rJill �ou send
out tv�o or three police cars? ,
P�ZR. BE��,IER: If we yTere advised, ti�e tivculd send eut sufficient police
to take care cf the situat�.on. '
T:IR. S�:;ITZER: Getting back to the question nere, it is our contenticn
tha� the presence cf the �rief here has caused labor and industrial _ strife.
l�Tr. PSZayor, tal:e �our predecessor for instance, tvere there any industrial
disputes in his adniinistration?
T�IR. P�.VEY: Plenty of them. 3ant�m Bearing, r3ilte :�leb, C�livers and
any number of therm.
T.RR. S��ITZER: At vahat peri�d of tnat adrlinistrat�on rrere these �
disputes? .
P:ZR. FAVEY: V7e11, I can�t say exactl�. I can't remember the dates.
ip'I�. S��IT3ER: �Jell, after tnat an agree�ent ivas reached `rith the
oificials---
T�'IR. PAVEY: S�IYiat kind of an agreement?
T;iR. S:"JIT�ER: �:dell, I den't just kno�v, but at least tilere was an
understanding and C. I.O. came in and started organizing and labor was
given the right without hampering of public efficials to carry on.
Organized labor ti�ras allov�red to carrsmn for t he gener�l vrelfare cf the
public. This man Ingrram is a very definite threat to our future securit�.
V'de are asking that a substitution be made from the ran�;s of the -police
department of Seuth Bend, or a citizen of South �end. I think vTe must
consider several lavrs under tvhich ti�e must operate and t�e citizens of ,
Sou�h Bend ��nov� tn�t tnese latiFrs �re fle�ible tninbs, and tive must consider
that tne giving of instructions to one Chief of Police does not mean that
ti�ey will be carried out the sar.le as instructions �o ancther �hief of
. �
SPECIAL P�?EETITdG---1`ZOVE4�BER 7, I939�continued � 4�
Police. ;'df; suggest then a subs�itute. ;-Je feel this �an does not carry
the� out tc� our advanta�e. T.Zuch has been said a�out increased eificiency
in our pol' ce department. If there is this efficiency, ti�e are in favor
of it, of c�.ourse, but it can be continued under another Chief as ,vell.
P��R. P1iV�'Y: He pursues the policies laid dotim b;� the �oard of Saiet�.
i;1R. S`:;ITZER: :'le y�ant one y�ho underst��ds ccmpletel�r South Bend and
gets instrlictions from �ou, because he vrould be able to carry out the in-
structions of the Board to our advantage and the advanta�e of the citizens.
r.2R. B�,A:I�R: ?'lould vou sa;*, i;'�r. Sv�ritzer, tnat it z�as a bad thin� to
brin� an olitside Chief oi Police �into axiy cor,�unit� because he didn�t under-
stand the .�ocial bacl�ground of the com�munity?
� T�,�R. S`=fITZER: '��i�ell - yes, I ��rould say that a Chief of Police should be
thorou�hl� i�amiliar tivith the social cc�ditions that exist in a communi�y�.
T�ZR. B'r:A;,iEZ: You have no doubt all heard of Tt�ayor I�iavrick of San Antonio,.
Te:�as? -
SeJITZ�.R ��D SEVER��L OTHERS; Yes.
?�;ZR. BF;A��ZER; :°Jell, did ;ou lr.norr ttiiat iTayor i;�avriek had hired as his Chief
of Police, Captain Ray AshvTOrth, a very good friend of Chief In�ram and a
mer.iber cf t,he `�Jichita depar�ment with Chief I�gram? '�
IFZR. S�;�I^1Z�R: yJell, �z2ayor ��avrick would investi�ate and t^rould not hire '
a strike bz�eaker, or one �•�ho tivas unsympathetic with labor.
LZR. BE,A�.i�: '�1e11, you contend that Ingra,m broke a strike in o'Jichita. ;
If what �ot�. s ay is true, then he r�ras carryin� out orders and his i�nediate I
super�or t�s.s Captain Ray �sh��rorth ZYr10 .vas on the �'ilichita force at that tir.le. �
:.2R. P�.VEY: 1?oti�r tliere certainl� can be no misundersta�ding about my �
position ir.. this mati;er. I yTent �n the air and it ti�ras in every netirspaper ;
that if e1E cted, i� t^ras r.1y intention th�.t tne Police Department be re-
organized, and I tnought it necessar� �o the entire �rellbeing of the citizens ,
of SouthBer.d that this be done. As to the methods used in that reor�anizat_onl
and this i� said ��vithout reflection on the me�bers of the force, I felt it
better to €et an outside int�n fer the jo'v. '�here can be no cempromise on
the enforcement of the lavTS. I cast about to find the r.man for �he job and I
�vent into it very thorou�hly before �he man was selected. I vrrote to the
Cnief of Pc lice in ';fichita, and to speak very fr�n.ily, the letter from Chief I
'.'Jilson saic , "P,Iany cities do not zvant a �;ood Police Department, others wa.nt �
them run pc liticallv and others �rant the Police Department run for the Y�enefit�
of the administrat-�on, and before I �-rill recommend a rsan I would have to knotiv i
what the pclicy of the administration is to be relative to lativ enforcement �
r�nd the or�anization of the police departrlent. I �rrill not put a man rn
the spot. " I timote b�.ck to Chi ef ;dilson that in the first place we want
the Police Depar�nent reorganized and zve tvant a man thorou�;hly qualified
cnd thorou�hlv schooled in modern police methods and one that would put
the Police De�artment cn the proper basis for a ci�y the size of Sou�h
Bend, and 2 person �rith the courage to carry it ov.t. It ti�ras not to Ue a
political iootball. The Police De�2rt�ent ��ras to function on a �.nerit basis
a.nd he i�rould not be hampered by any of the tlings outlined in his letter. I
He cane back svith a recor�endation for Chief Ingram. He said there 19SS
no questian about the Chiefts �eral courage and that he could recommend him �
ti�it�out any Question. T;gr. Bea.�er ��rent do�rn and investigated this inan. i�,Tr. i
� Ingram came here �or intervie�rs and his bacl:ground �ras investigated tnoroughly:
A nu..Ynber of people talked to him and tve then decided he should corie here and !
take this job as Ci1ief of Folice. I am unable ta see tvh�r any one should �
have any q�estion or fear about him as lonb as he stia�s �rithin the lav� �ae-
cause this Boarcl and r.�.�self are under oath to see tha� l�:^rs are c�rriecl out
for the benefit of everyone. There can be no ccmnroriise on the situat__on.
i�n� lativs are not sat up in favor of an3r group or anST individuals and �^re are i
just as anxious to see that they are carried out for ;our benefit as any j
one elses.
i
T�,ZR. lv7cLtJAN; President of tne Bendix Union: Is it true th�t Chief In�ram
is a relative of �Tours? There has k�een a lot of talk �oing around to that
effect and I t�rould like to �ino�r.
i
� I�.R. PA�rEY; Absolutely not. I never izeard of the ?:nan until I received i
the letter f'rom Chief i�lilson, that I just reierred to, a.nd never sa�r him until '
he came herF for an intervievJ late last December.
------ - - --- — - -- �
4� SPECIAE� �rTEETIi�TG-��ICV�".�BER 7, I.939, continued
P1IR. ?vtcE'�ifAN: Get�ing back to that Sanders strike situatzon--�here
�tas a legitimate C. I.O. strike on there and the r�.N. of L. did not enter
into the picture until after the police broke the pic�cet lines.
T,IR. PAVEY: idob�r, that is not the case. lriatthetirTS ca�me to my office
and told us the stril�e �vas on at Sanders Lumber Com�any and the strike
srras called because of �he failure to rene�°r the charter, and instead ap-
plied for and received an A.F. of L. charter through a man b, the name
of Taylor at the direct�on of 'rJilli�n Green, President of the A.F. of L.
in '��ashin�ton. Isn�t that correct, I,Iatthe�vs?
P,�. iv�AiTi3E�i�TS: No, I didn't say the charter e.�pired. The charter
lzad not been cancelled. I 9aid the contract nad expired.
��ZR. PAVE'Y: That is right. I meant the contract in place of charter.
l;TR. I;TATTHEIVS: VJhen I came into your office I met these men cc�-iing
out and I as?ced if they iJere t�ere for police protection and �,rou said, "No:'
IrIR. PAVL'Y: I said they �qere here as to t�zeir rights about an elec-
tion of the �sorkers and I asked: "Isn�t it ti.me an election tivas supposed ,
to be held?" and then you said, "Yes", but you would not �ive your con-
sen� and that would mean thev �vould have to �o to court which �vould take
rlonths for a decision and in the r.�eanti7::e they �vould have to keep the
plant cicsed and the men �vould be out cf taorl: and the taxpa�rers tiRrould have
ta take care of them. Isn�t it true the A.F. of L. represents a majority ;
of the ti�rorkers?
l�R. :�IATTHE`."dS: No, tnere is a majority belongin� to both organiza- '
��ons. There are 23 bglonging to each organization.
PdR. P AVEY: There are only 39 employees.
rr�R. �IATTl-iE'�JS: ���le both claim to have 23 of therl.
�;iR. ?�icEaYAi�l: Isn t t it true you called the A.F. of L. to see �Rhat
they tivere �oing to do about it?
T,TR. PAVEY: I called Turnock to see ti�hat the situation �vas.
T�ZR. rsicE�J�'�,i�t: Turnock told r:me 3Tou called him to see �rnat he yTas going
to do about �ne situation and that ne told �ou tha� it �ras your baby and
not his.
�iR. S'�dITZER: 'l,(hat you Gre tr��ing to do is to pin this do�Tn to one
little thin�. It is a compilation of thin�s that have happened since
the Chief took office.
RiR. Tr7cE`:JAId: �Uhy did you sit do�Tn in Studebal�er Hall vaith us at the '
time of the Bendix s�ri��e and discuss the matter z�ith us and then the
next day ask the Governor to brin� troops up here?
1,ZR. PAVEY: Tdoi�, before I anstiver that quest.�on, let� s go into the
background for the benefit of these cther people as to yJhat led up to
my going to Indianapolis . I did go to, Indianapolis. Isn�t it true, ,
P�r. PrlcEvran, that I eat down at Studeba?�er iia11 with the bar�ainin� com- '
r�ittee of the Bendix union, a Federal Conciliator, P;ir. Scherman, and A�'�r.
Ralston, you �vere there, too. You told me gou� v�ere all my friends; that
you �vere responsible for my election and I told you that if you srere my
friends, you vrould not put me on the spot. You vrere keepin� out non-
productive workers and management tivno �rere not members of �,our union and
�ou k210tV that you vJere outside of your ri�hts. It rras only a r:iatter of
time until a request �ras �oino to be :;1ade to pL�t these r�eople bacl� in
possessian of the plant. I don�t l�oti� �vnen it is �oing to come or i1o�v,
whetner by restrainir_g order, court injunction or demand by the people
affected, but hoz�ever it came, and �vhen it ca-:�e, I had only one procedure
to follovJ and that �ras to see that it ��ras carried out.
T�ir. Shipley, Secretary cf the Bcndix Union, stated that people so_�e-
times say I talk lil�e an anarchist. If I ti�as in your place and tne courts
did 'nand down an in junction I would say t'to hell �rrith the courts. `� I told
T��r. Shipley we held di�Iferent vie�JS. I still have respect for our ccurts
and f or 1a�1 and order.
�ir. Ralston, you stated that the Studebal�er ��orkers •��ere ativare of
the condition at the Bendix plant and they have a legitimate cause and '
J�
SPECIAL P;ZEETITdG--T��VEP;TBER 7, I939, continued �.F1
� if an atte�pt is made by t�ese people �o bo in�o tine plant, ;�ou vlould send �
6,000 piclrets to the plant; �nd T,'r. S�irley also stated that no cne �ras i
�;oing into that plant until everyone wen� in and if any atte�pt tiJas �nade to !
go in, that blood �vould be flovring dctim tne street. No��, isn�t that tr.ue,
�p r. 37i cEwan`'
Tv7R. �Tc�E�aJ.4I1: I tivasn't there vThen Shipley said that blood would be running
; datirn the street. �
T�.TR. P�.V�Y: �ou �vere sitt�ng right next to nim.
�TR. T�1cE'�JA.T1: VJhat he said i�as blocd �JOUld run dot^m the street if �ou �
' attempted to put those people throu�h the lines tirith the police.
1�ZR. P�VEY: That ma� have been the situat ion.
P�'IR. P,�IcE��dAI�?: d'Jas there any demonstration on the part of the non-productive
people to �;o throt:gh tne line? s`,lYio petit�oned �ou i or t nat kind of action I,
to call on the Governor to as�� for troops? I
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lYTR. P�.VEY: I went on my oc�rn hook. I didn 1 t go to ask for troops. I i
vrent to inf'orr,i the Governor of the situation and to iind out ti^rhat we could �
e�peet ii �. situ2tion did arise that vre cculd not n.andle.
� T,iR. �?c.E:'t�l: I do not believe it is your duty to step -.�nto a dispute of �
that kirid. �"�fe resented it very much. i
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� ?��ZR. P�VEY: If the situation cvas repeated, I �vould do the sai:ie �hing. '�
You said nc one is �oing into that plant until tney all go in. Didn�t !
3Tou say th�.t? ;
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I,�R. 2�cEV�4Td: Yes, and here is another thing. t�de are going to fight to I
maintain ot�.r organization 'as �rell as you are �oin� to fight to keep your
administrat�ion.
TrTR. P�.V�Y: You are tvell within your rights to mainta�_n your organization !
as an educ�.tional and proper union progr�n and :ve have no desire to deprive
you of that , and we feel that proper organization of labor is � proper thing
and �re havE no idea to hamper that situation in a1 y �ra�r as long as fou con-
fine it to a legal and lawful methed.
�TR. Mc E'�"JAN: �Je are going t o fight to maintain our picket lines and if
that is our� only alternative, v�e are going to use it. If ive have a �roup
of rnen that pled�e the�selves to our organizat.ion and pledge to pay some-
t�.zng ever�� month, �.nd if a man decides to 1et us doz�rn, and when ti7e de?nand
of that mar. that he live up to that obliga�ion, ���e ;et a picket line to i
collect thE dues from him. If we cannot collect the dues that r�ay, then tive I
��ill call F. stri'_�e and der;iand a closed shop contract, if tive cannot collect ':.
the dues tr.e cther vra�.
T,1R. R��LSTON: If a man does not paT,r his rent, you �,o to cour� and get
his furnitire set out in the street, but tive cannot ;o to court to collect
our dues, vre must use a picket line.
Py�. Pt.VEY: If you o�1e a �rocery bill, the grocer tvill go to court to
collect it in a lawful manner, he vron�t try to collect it by keeping you
frora your v�orL.
T�iR. Pric:�tAiJ: Your grocer z�aill tell you that he svould rather see a
picket line keep out five percent and keep ninet�-five percent of the men
at i�rork th�n have a strike to keep out one hundred percent of the ::ien. ;
T,�R. t��.TTF�'1S: Y'1lriat business did the Chief have at Olivers? There i
�ras a �vatcY�an there vrorking for the Company and �e did not tell �he men
to get off the proper$y. Chief Ingrar,� said, 'tPull him in here". I �vill '
swear to tY�at. I have twenty yTitnesses that tirill do the same thing. �
Dcn't you think he vJas trying to �tart a riot. �
p�. R�.LSTON: ti"Je are ooing to collect dues and �+re are ooing to maintain i
an organiz�.tion in this city. If there vJas any riot, or any form of riot,
I did not l�nc�r it until the C�lief of Police silotiTed u� and tried to get these
men througYi.
��IR. ?��Z�.TTh'E�ti�7S: vJhat bus�ness did Ingra� have out tiiere �;iving orders? j
r�7R. 5�,1'ITZER: In t�e paper last ni�h� �nere cTas inference �.ade that ��e !
vrere not ir.terested in the ad.ministration oi la;°T or the r�aintaining of la�t
and order. '
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SPECIAL�:T�ZEETIidG--NGV�'tiiBER7, 1939, con�inued
P,4R. PAVL'Y: Lavvs must be carried out and tve represent 104,000
people and you have no reason to be alarmed as lon� as you s�ay clithin "
the 1 a�v.
T.iR. �E�:�ER: You maintain i� is legal to keep a man out of employ-
�ent if ne has not paid �is dues?
�-SR. S��`JITZ�H; That does not enter into this. "
��IF�. BE��:ER: I think it en�ers in�o it very r:iaterially. It is the
trJhole essenee of �his controversy. It is a question of �vhat is the
right of individuals. Your rights are pretty tivell outlined by the ac-
tion of the le�islature and the interpretation oi the courts. That is
the laia.
ly:R. S;�ITZ�R: That is not a question until it is a breach of law ,
and i� is not a breach of lativ to keep a man out of �rork.
I�t'I'3. BEIaIr�R: Can you find any place in the law ���iere you have that
right? If a man demands to go in and was not let in because he had not
paid his dues, does he not have a right to demand assistance from the ;�
police to get in under the la�;J?
I I�ZR. S��JITZER: Under some circumstances.
I! I�iR. BEAI�TER. Under these circumstances. I am talking abcut the ,
circumstances that existed at 4livers.
I.2R. S�'�fITZER: ,�dhat do �re l�oti� about circusnstances?
T:iR. BEl�?,iER: T arn talking about the circu�stances that e:�isted at
the Oliver plant at tne ti.me tive are discussing,�
P,ZR. S;'dITZER: It is not necessar� that I sta�e de�initel�. T�e
burden is on you to justify your acticns in this case.
rrqR. aGDEi�: Every tirie a person becomes behind in his dues, we are
justified in calling a strike. �ile have our moral rights to maintain a
strike.
I!TR. ?�L�cE'."1ATT: VJe have a right to maintain peaceful pic��et lines.
PrTR. BEAl�,'�r�: As long as you maintain a picket line peacefully, that
isyour right.
Iti?R. T.icE'�VAiV; �rJhat is a peaceful picket line?
?.iR. S�IJITZER: Let them ans��ler that.
lrlR. I3Er'L4ER: You are an a�ttorney, Lir. S��itzer.
T�7R. S'v�fITZER: I wontt define i� for you. You are the gentle�en tivho
are defining our rights and it is up to you to tell us. Since gou en-
force the layr that z�va�r, you should apprise the-se men ��rhat �rour policies
ar e. v
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TvIR. 14�cEI�dAi1; tiVho is the 2ggressor t^rhen you pu� a man through the
picket lines?
MR. S:`�TIITZ�R: Let the Board tell us, as the Boarct is the one ti�rho
sets do�1n these la:�vs. Let them define �^rh�t is ri�ht.
TJIR. BEt'�.T,TER: I understand a peaceiul picl:et line to be one that is
rnaintained ��here a dispute ex�sts bet�reen an employer and his ernployees
aa�d the employees pic�et for the purpose oi inforinin� the public of their
demands, the nature of t�e controversy and e�orting per:ons not to go
into the place of business, so long �.s no violence cr thre�ts are used
to keep them out. I do not understand a pe�ceful pic�et line to be one
Y�here people are l�ept our forceablg or by t��eats tivhere they have a lati�-
f'ul right to enter.
P.gR. S,�ITZER: You feel that it is an illegal p3.c�ret line ti�hen a man
may go through tne line ti�vith a pass issued by the union?
Ty�R. BEI�I�;ZER: I think it is a11 righ� to get a pass, but unnecess�ry.
� Y�u have no r:iore ri�ht to dema.~�d that a nerson obtain a pass frc�n you in
order to get throug your pic�et lines tnan you have to c�e:land t��at
I s�zould ge� a pass bef�re I enter the City Hall. �
: ' SPECIAL rdIEETIi�1G--ivOV�.iBL`R 7, 1939, continued 4� �
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T:�R. PAVEY: Do you think it is legal to bloc� the ingress or egress �o
any place of business and ��eep people from goin� in cr out?
T�. I,gcE��IAN: ';Then z�e put �ut a picket line, �ve do not put it around a I
vacant lot. '1Je put it a.round a plant for a very definite purpose and vae i
intend to acccmplis�h that purpose. :de are at tiTar rrith industry, and v1e !
intend to fight. '�1e never put a picket line around a place' unless tive feel i
ti^re have a rtiajority behina us. You do not believe in mincrit� rule and �ve
do nct either. ,
I.iR. BE1�'.'ER: You believe in minority rignts, don't you?
P�iR. TScEI'Jl�s�: Yes, bu� in ina�ority rule. If a ma�ority demands a certain '
thing, tnat is their rights, but, of course, it tiTill affect a small Lninority.
I�R. BEA�rER: You contend that an organization r�iakes the latvs for the
co.nrnunity.
T:IR. SI'iITZER: If our organization represents the riajority of the people
and the thing, ti�hich �de demand is ti�hat the r�ajority wants, then tha� is the i
lati^r of the conununity. !
:�,2R. BEA1.�R: It is your contenticn, then, I.ir. Sti�ritzer, tnat if as a !
majority organization in any cor�munit;� fou decided to beat in the heads of
the rest of the people o� the cc:nmunity, that vJOUld be you�.^ legal ri�ht and
that tivould be the latiar of the corununity? ;
I�;�R. S��dITZER: No, that would be in op�osition of a hi�her Iati7. ,
I�iR. PAVEY: Hosv man� people do �ou represent.
I
TvIR. It�ATT�3��`dS: �o�r r�1�y voters are there is the ccmmunity? �
T.2R. PAVEY: I do not l�oti�r, but that i sn t t the question. I as�:ed ho��r �
�any people do you represent? �
;
I,�.R. r;1ATTHE�"�S: �ie have a r�.ajority of the vates. The vote is `rhat counts �
ir_ an electicn. It is not onl� the member of our Union that counts. That is
not here or there. i`de have, yve believe, tti�renty-tvTO or ttivent�-three thous�nd.
Each person in our organization represents a f�nily. Each family has three
cr four pecple in it, and �hrough our mer.2bef s �ye represent the i amilv. �;Je
rep?-esent �.pproximatelJ 66,000 people. It isn�t the amount i_n the or�aniza-
ticn that counts, but tiie ai:�oud�t that yre represent.
I��R. R.�LSTGN: That is well established by the rieeting last night. �I
There �vere about 2600 people there. i
� i:gR. Sr�ITZER: Suppose the people we represent Vrould be better satisfied
if the Chief t�as removed. Does that mean anythin� to you?
� I��iR. PAVL'Y: Nothin�. I have no in.iarriation t hat ti�aould lead me to be- I
lieve that a majority �vant hirn reraoved. I have seen no �ndicatien that the �
C_-?ief has done anything bu� carr� out his lati•Jful duty as a lati^1 enforcement
officer.
It�. S'�JITZER: A �'Iajorit�T of the people �P�ant hir.m removed. They ;��oulc� be
better sa�isfied: There tirould be greater industri2' 'r.�s� if the Cnief YJ�.3
rer.moved.
1'+TR. PA,�TE�': You must have a more tangible reason.
i,7R. OGDEId; Isn�t it true that ;cu can find reasons if you are looking
for them.
T�R. BEAi,:ER: The Foard of Saiet�r must have cause to remove a police
officer. ilo�r, tal�e t�.-is case ci Tes:ner, for instance, tirhich was brought up
at �our r�ieetin� last night. Tesmer had a bad physical condit�on �vhich we
l�evr about and ���iic� caused him to be off for six.ty days or more dur?ng the
current ye�r. He ti�ras unable to carry out the duties of a police�nan. Knotaing ;
this �Rre sent him to the Pclice Physici�n for an e�atnination. The Palice ;
Physician reported, after tne ex�nination, that he had a bsd heart condition I
and that he ��7as unfit ior police i�acrk and any undue exercise mi�ht I�ill hiri. �
After receivin� this report, y�e tivent to Tesmer and sL��ested to him tnat he i
. �o to the rension doctor for an examinatien and told him that we vJCUld abide ;
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, 4� SPECIAL P�iEETIIuG--1`.OVE?,T13ER 7, 1939, continued.
by the pension doctor � s decision. If the pension dcctor said that he
, ��1as capable of performin� his �rcrk as a policeman, that vlould end the
' ccntroversy b ut tive iaould expec� him to do a policeman�s Vvorl�. On the
I other hand, if the pension doctor did not find tha� he vras physically -
capable of carrying on his duties, he should apply to the pension board
, for a pension and receive a pensien t�ntil such time as he mi�ht beccme
physically able to perform the duties of a policeman again, at zrhich
, time he could be re-instated in tne department as a fu11-fled�ed patrol-
man. That he refused to do. .
i Qur onl� alternative vras tp prefer charges and the Board instructed
' the Chief to prefer those charges.. Tes�er then brought an action in
, court. After the acticn tivas brought, I called his �ttorney ancl as��ed
' him i£ he �e�v that tiJe had advised TesLner to go to the pensicn doctor
' and vte tirould be guided by his decision. His attorneST said: T'Tdo, he did
not Iinc�^� that�'. He said that he woLild advise iesmer to do that. Tesri�er
did Uo to the police pens�on doctor; vrno is Dr. Ser_senich, a well-
recognized diagnostician and a r:an trho �.as been the pension fund doctor '
for many vears, and his report sho�Ted tnat Tes�er �vas incapable cf per-
ferming the ¢�uties oi a nolicer.lan. Tes:�ler is not olualified to do o�'fice
svork. Tesmer applied to the pens�on board icr a pension and the i�ensian
bcard acted upon his request PtTonday and granted him a �75.00 a month _r.en-
sion and the controvers�T is notiv settled. .
?s��R. OGDEI�T; sr�ell, I did not ask about it.
?,TR. BEAP,iER: I kno�°r �ou didn�t, but I knovr that a lot of _misinforr.ia-
tion t�ras put out at S-our meeting last night about it, and I simply wanted
to �et the records strai;ht.
T�ZR. S:�IITZER: The ma j ority of the people in South Bend a re in favor
of having the Chief rey�oved.
P�IR. BEIiT��R: :Ve11, if �hat is true, ti�e can �t rEmove him for that cause.
If an� one files charges against him based on the la���s of the State of
Indi�na, we ��ill have a hearing and determine vlhether he should be renoved.
T,TR. S';;tITZER: �Ve feel that this obvious unrest is cause for his rerloval.
R1R. BEAI�IER: The law defines 'r�ow a person can be re�oved frorn. the Police
Department. It specifies certain causes for rernoval.
T��:R. PrTCE'�^JAN: Can he be re�ioved for just cause?
T�R. BEAr.?ER: A man ean be rer�oved fer just caL�se. The just cause
must be stated. So�le of the causes defined by statute are; violation
of rules, insubordination, cc.*�miss;on of a cr,_me, �ncapacit„ an�. there
are several others. None of the ti1-.ings �rou have stated cor�ie �7it�iin the
provis�ons cf tnis statute unless �;� some broad stretch of the ima;ina-
tion yau might sa�T �hat he is incapacitated from performin� his du�ies.
P1IR. S:'JITZER: '�"Jell, if his action has been such to cause social un-
re�t ��d the lil:e in the xionununity, �.rouldn t t you say that is grounds for
rer:lovin� him for incapacity? �
T,�R. �3EAt:�iER: Off-hand, I v�rould say no. All of the cases that I l
have read on this subject in Indian a indicate that the wcrd 'rincapacity'r
conte:�plates sc�e mental or physical disability �°rhich yTOUld require ex- �
pert medical testimony to prove.
I�liR. �.Il�TTiiE�:1S: �'Jel.l, �ve feel he is znentally incapable ti� represent
this town.
l�R. �;?cEl'JAP;: If yre could �et 95;� of the people to ob j ect to him,
��rovl�� T:qr. Pavey re:nove him? I� that the attitude i�Tr. �avey vran�s us �o
take?
I;�iR. BE�i��ER: It depends upon the interpretation of the statutes.
ZTnless tnere are just grounds, he cannot be rerioved.
T:iR. i�rcE'T�JAl`T: ti'dell, Bea:�ier, if t�ve represen� the i�ajority of these
people 2nd the interpretation of the latir is the sat�e as the United States
Governxnent--the �aill of the majority--if the v�ill of the majorit� sees
fit to remove this man, do you r..ean that you ,�tou.ld not tal�e action?
T;:R. BEP.�,IER: I did not sa� that. If z�ou file proper cha. ges and the
c�larges come �rrithin the proper provisions of the larr, vae ti,rill ta��e action
,
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SPECIAL i�2EETING--NOVEI.aBER 7, 1y39, continued 4�
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; and have a hearing and permit �rou to produce evidence. If you believe he
i should be reLnoved from tne Police Department, file �our charges in a legal
manner. I do not believe, hov�ever, that a man c�n be removed from the Po-
lice Department because a majority, hotvever large, �^rants him removed.
That ti��ould not give much security �o police efficers. It is for the
officers t �rotection that these latvs s�ere designed. Suppose a man Vras an
�_ctive .mem'�er of the Police Departrient for ttvent3T years. Durin� that time
he naturally `�rould have Arrested many peaple and put out man� traf£ic tic�iets
�nd the like. Y u could see that he mi�ht h�ve incurred the displeasure
ef more than hal�' of the people oz the community. Is that just cause for
ris removal becal?se he nas been c�rr�Ting out the latr for these tiventy �ears?
I ar� not so sure that kind of a cause 1°rould stand up in court.
IiR. S��'aITZER: Is there any question as t o the understanding of the
basis on ti�rich :�re are here?
P,�R. PAV�Y: I have no quest ion in my mind.
�Y�ETI2dG ADJOURT?ED pT 12:20 P.T�T.
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ATTEST• / CHAIRI�AN
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SP�CIAL �52EETIP�.G--T;CVEP:�BER 9, 1939 • i
A special meeting of the Bo ard of FUblic Safet f �ras called at 4 c00 ;
P.t�i. to hear cnargeU preferred against �fficer raczesny b� Chie f 'ln�ra.m. �
All members rrere. present. Officer Paczesny} s attorne� v�as presen�t and �
at this rec�uest the hearing is notiv continued until T.qgnda�, idRvember 13, �
19 39. �
T,iEETIivG ADJOURTIED AT 4:05 P.r�.
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/ C HAIRTaTAN
ATTE
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